Should Jayce's lore be changed?

Yes 967 95.46%
No 46 4.54%
Voters: 1013. You may not vote on this poll

Change Jayce's Lore before release

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Alpha GareBear

Senior Member

07-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iralius View Post
hu·man·i·ty/(h)yo͞oˈmanitē/
Noun:

The human race; human beings collectively.
The fact or condition of being human; human nature.
So humanity is being part of the **** sapien race? In that case, it's worthless. It means nothing. It has nothing to do with who someone is. Your value as a person would be the same if you suddenly woke up as an antelope. Who you are is not defined by your species, but instead by what you think and who you are as a person.

It's not that it's an infectious disease. It's that it is inferior. Being a human sucks. Your body sucks a lot of ****. It's got a lot of unnecessary parts that will explode, it has a lot of parts that suck at what they're supposed to do. If you can improve it, why not?

I also don't see exactly where it is stated that Viktor is forcing people into being augmented. I see that he certainly WANTS everyone to be augmented, but I've never seen any canon that he is malevolent about it. Where did he start strapping people down and changing them by force?


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Iralius

Senior Member

07-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha GareBear View Post
So humanity is being part of the **** sapien race? In that case, it's worthless. It means nothing. It has nothing to do with who someone is. Your value as a person would be the same if you suddenly woke up as an antelope. Who you are is not defined by your species, but instead by what you think and who you are as a person.
Maybe you should go for the augmentation then if you don't think being a human, and by that extension being able to love, to feel, to enjoy life for what it is is being special.

Quote:
It's not that it's an infectious disease. It's that it is inferior. Being a human sucks. Your body sucks a lot of ****. It's got a lot of unnecessary parts that will explode, it has a lot of parts that suck at what they're supposed to do. If you can improve it, why not?
Improvement at the cost of what it means to be human is not improvement.

Quote:
I also don't see exactly where it is stated that Viktor is forcing people into being augmented. I see that he certainly WANTS everyone to be augmented, but I've never seen any canon that he is malevolent about it. Where did he start strapping people down and changing them by force?
Do you think he's really going to let lying, cheating, weak, fleshy humans and other creatures live in his perfect utopia of Machine-Hood?


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NihilumCB

Member

07-05-2012

Lots of issues with this discussion now.

First; everyone's saying there's no lore showing that Viktor has sociopathic or anti-human tendencies/sympathies. Allow me to be the one to point out that Viktor really just has no lore. He's still a new character guys, and thus far all he has to his name is a background story. The background story does point out that he surgically removed his own humanity and that his goal is a global shift to robotics. Some people might romanticize that and say it's not evil, but ANY bad guys from any stories that want to completely remove or reinvent the human race are evil. It's not a difficult point to argue.

Second; Iralius had a great point in another thread. Regardless of how intelligent a scientist or inventor is, no one knows everything. Heimerdinger, in the League lore, is probably the closest one, but neither Jayce nor Viktor can match his intellectual prowess. So maybe Viktor's untouchable in designing mechanical devices and robotics, but Jayce kicks the **** out of him in the field of power supplies and converters. This is a completely and utterly logical conclusion. And if this is the case, Viktor would steal the hell out of the power supplies that Jayce created; Viktor's machine-self functions on pure logic, and stealing technology that he doesn't have is the path of least resistance.

Third; It seems to me that everyone's angry about Jayce being a pretty boy super-hero, but in trying to bash him they're unwittingly turning Viktor into superman. He was an inventor, pushed over the edge, who reinvented a new reality for himself; awesome. But now everyone thinks he's this god-like, infallible inventor who would never, ever be outdone? Have a little dignity, guys. If League lore says Jayce invented something that Viktor didn't, it doesn't suddenly mean Viktor's a dumbass, it only means what it says; Jayce invented something that Viktor didn't. The end.


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NihilumCB

Member

07-05-2012

Going to add a fourth point, that's really just an elaboration on the first point;

There is absolutely no way to satisfy everyone with anything, we all know this is true. No matter what story Riot creates I'm sure I can think of ways that I could make it better. So could all of you. The problem is that it's opinionated; I could create what I consider the perfect story, and you could all come up with reasons to not like it or ways to change it. And in the end this isn't our story to tell, none of us own Viktor's character or story. So as far as I'm concerned, there's a very simple choice to be made; do you all want new Viktor lore that you may or may not agree with, or would you rather Viktor never get any new lore?


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Alpha GareBear

Senior Member

07-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iralius View Post
Maybe you should go for the augmentation then if you don't think being a human, and by that extension being able to love, to feel, to enjoy life for what it is is being special.
Other animals can feel. So, that's not contingent upon being a human. So, again, you are attributing things to being human that have nothing to do with being human.

Quote:
Improvement at the cost of what it means to be human is not improvement.
Again, you have not demonstrated that being of the **** sapien race is worth jack.

Quote:
Do you think he's really going to let lying, cheating, weak, fleshy humans and other creatures live in his perfect utopia of Machine-Hood?
Lying and cheating are two things which crappy people do. Not humans. And weak? Really? You think that he would test out his equipment against things that he thinks are weak? No. He knows that they are strong. He just thinks that they could be better. Fleshy isn't really an insult so much as a statement of fact.

Edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NihilumCB View Post
Going to add a fourth point, that's really just an elaboration on the first point;

There is absolutely no way to satisfy everyone with anything, we all know this is true. No matter what story Riot creates I'm sure I can think of ways that I could make it better. So could all of you. The problem is that it's opinionated; I could create what I consider the perfect story, and you could all come up with reasons to not like it or ways to change it. And in the end this isn't our story to tell, none of us own Viktor's character or story. So as far as I'm concerned, there's a very simple choice to be made; do you all want new Viktor lore that you may or may not agree with, or would you rather Viktor never get any new lore?
In the same way I would reject George Lucas making Jar Jar Binks a jedi, I am going to reject this lore for Viktor. At best, it is propaganda Jayce is using against Viktor.


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ninemile

Senior Member

07-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by NihilumCB View Post

Third; It seems to me that everyone's angry about Jayce being a pretty boy super-hero, but in trying to bash him they're unwittingly turning Viktor into superman. He was an inventor, pushed over the edge, who reinvented a new reality for himself; awesome. But now everyone thinks he's this god-like, infallible inventor who would never, ever be outdone? Have a little dignity, guys. If League lore says Jayce invented something that Viktor didn't, it doesn't suddenly mean Viktor's a dumbass, it only means what it says; Jayce invented something that Viktor didn't. The end.
It isn't that Viktor had to steal from Jayce that upsets me about the lore. Its the complete overreaction in the rest of the story. Ok, so Viktor steals one of Jayce's designs. Sure, I see it. He needed some schematic of Jayce's for his energy ray or whatever, I don't have a problem with that.

But afterward, Jayce goes all crazy superhero, makes a hammer (HEY GUYS I INVENTED A HAMMER WITH A GUN IN IT, EVER SEEN THAT BEFORE???), and then goes and destroys Viktor's entire lab. And then when they confront each other, VIktor just walks out the back door, and then Jayce leaves AND RETURNS A HERO. For... what??

The whole thing is so stupid and cliched. How about Viktor kidnaps people from Piltover and experiments with augmentations on him? And one of them is Jayce's girlfriend/wife/friend? And how about when he confronts him, Jayce like, I don't know, crushes one of Vik's arms with his hammer, or Vik burns out one of Jayce's eyes with his laser? Something, anything, to make their rivalry make SENSE.

I feel like Graves and Twisted Fate have an interesting rivalry, one that makes Twisted Fate sort of come out like a bad guy. VIktor and Jayce's rivalry is stupid. Its like old, 50's style lex luthor and Superman. Pretty boy chases evil scientist and evil scientist gets away. Pretty boy is hero, everyone hates evil scientist. I mean COME ON.

I bet half the lore threads on this forum have better stories than this.


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HonorableGeneral

Senior Member

07-05-2012

As has been stated multiple times, Jayce's lore is simply bad. You don't have to just look at Viktor to see it.

Let's break down what's been repeated in several pages prior, and has never been addressed by the opposing side:

1. Jayce is Piltover's hero inventor. WTF happened to Heimerdinger? Did they just throw him away? Does Riot not dig afro Yordles anymore? What's the deal here? No mention of Jayce's apprenticeship or learning under Heimerdinger (despite the latter having a friggin' academy that he runs for science) or even Jayce ACKNOWLEDGING that Heimerdinger exists. If your argument is that Viktor is getting a lore update and we should be happy with that, where's Heimerdinger's lore update? Oh wait, we shouldn't ask for one. They'd butcher that like they butchered Viktor's.

2. None of the official Piltover leaders or officials wanted to help Jayce apprehend Viktor. WTF happened to Caitlyn? Did she just decide "Oh I'm gonna let the bureaucracy stop me from catching a criminal"? If that's the sort of attitude she had, how would she have cleaned up Piltover as claimed in her lore when it was a crime-infested rat hole like Zaun? The lore simply doesn't portray Caitlyn in-character. It ignores her like it ignores Heimerdinger, but I'm grateful they, again, at least didn't mess up her lore like they did with Viktor's.

3. Jayce's appearance doesn't match with his persona. Let's look at his inspiration, Tony Stark. Stark appears clean-cut and attractive, but he is by NO means strong (without the suit's power, he's a total pushover - in the first movie, he literally has to pull off his suit as it's weighing him down when the power dies). Jayce looks like a combination of Superman and Stark, which doesn't make sense lore-wise since his entire lore is a huge imitation of Stark's lore. Stark is well-kept, but by no means chiseled. Maybe it's because we can't see his lower body, but his face and the way his armor/suit seem to jut out indicate he's either REALLY fat, wearing a LOT of clothes (which means he'd need to be strong and flexible to fight), or buff.

4. Jayce's story has so many plot holes it just hurts. It's like Riot decided that with the 100th champion they'd just THROW OUT ALL THE OLD LORE (lovingly cherished by the community) and restart it with Jayce. That's fine, but at least indicate "Oh guys we're throwing out all the old lore, so the champion lore's will be remade in the near future" so we don't keep arguing over why Jayce doesn't fit in with the rest of Runeterra and Valoran. The lack of Caitlyn, Heimerdinger, the butchering of Viktor's lore, and Jayce's overall conflicting character (Superman vs. Iron Man) seems to indicate that an intern made up his lore (thus, has no experience with the rest of the characters) or Riot's employees were blazed or drunk out of their minds when they composed it.

Don't mistake this for hating on Riot. I love Riot, and I love their employees. That's why I hate this lore. It's not up to par with what Riot can pump out - with what they SHOULD pump out - when it comes to lore.


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Reaver Nehlis

Senior Member

07-05-2012

Jayce's story is an insult to Viktor's. Viktor augmented himself so that he could be rid of all the jealousy and anger at other Zaun scientists stealing his ideas and taking his credit, and Jayce's lore completely flips this around. Viktor was better as the one who could not stand to see others take his dreams from him, and who seeks misguidedly lead all to a technological revolution. His profile could be attuned to a well meaning messiah-complex genius, but Jayce's lore turns him into some cartoon thief villain.


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Ask the Herald

Member

07-05-2012

Bump for the Glorious Evolution!


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HonorableGeneral

Senior Member

07-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ask the Herald View Post
Bump for the Glorious Evolution!
You mean Revolution. Evolution takes millions of years. Revolution is a quick change. The two are opposites.