stealth mode is overpowered

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Altor

Member

11-02-2009

I usually play Ashe, who is pretty weak at the beginning. I have played against an Ev or Twitch who are paired with a hero that can do an area stun/slow, and even at full health I've gotten owned by an ambush. Usually it is when we appear to be doing well and pushing to their turret, and far from our own tower. One opponent will engage and the stealth will then unstealth and focus on you. I will try to run but be stunned, knocked back, feared, whatever. Even if my ally is close by, I will be dead pretty quick. With a good ally who focuses on the weaker we can sometimes hold them off; with a newb they either won't help or will just feed them. Honestly, what are the options here?

- always hide by your tower? ok, but you'll fall behind by sitting there

- buy a vision ward at the beginning if you see any stealth guys on the load screen. you might not even face him in your lane, and you'll be unable to buy anything other than a really cheap items at best. Neoh you honestly use vision wards at the beginning? I've tried it and they're pretty ineffective as a whole. For 3 minutes it's great. But then you're down 150 gold and have to recall to buy more, or you're down *any* equipment at the beginning just so you can buy 3 wards.

- ask for a lane switch?

- play really cautious - even that doesn't work all the time because a stealth player can just sit behind you

- recall anytime you're at < 1/2 health or retreat to your turret? it takes a while to regen, or walk back if you recall, but better than dying

You're Ashe and Heimer vs Eve and a hero with a stun (take your pick), how would you play? what would you buy? specifically for the first 20 minutes.


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ZGBudai

Member

11-02-2009

Obvious Troll is Obvious.

No one ever complains about stealth as a general mechanic.

That or... you just blow.


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Altor

Member

11-02-2009

Quote:
either your hero has low hp(ashe)
that does happen to be the case as I said I usually play Ashe. What do you suggest? Specifically, what first item, and how would you play the first 20 minutes?


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Xocolatl

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Senior Member

11-02-2009

My counter to stealth is to get more HP and MR. Starting off with a potion and Chalice is usually a good idea. Stealth champs have good burst, but they will die first if they stand toe to toe with you. Therefore having full HP (hence, potion) means you will outlast the initial burst.

Stealthers aren't too bad during mid game. Early game, they can be really dangerous 2v1. If you know there is a stealther nearby, call in reinforcement. Seriously--they have a really good initiator, and can take you down easily. They can't do it if there are 2 of you, unless they are willing to lose 1 member in the process.
Secondly, lane toward the middle of the map. If they are setting up for an ambush, chances are the non-stealther needs to be in the bush. Laning away from the 2nd champ makes it much harder to attack you, unless they are willing to take damage from creeps--which is a big deal at level 1.
Third, if your champ is just bad against stealth, ask for lane switch. There is no shame in it. Some champs are just better equipped for it. For example, try to stealth into Alistair, and he's going to Ground Slam the **** out of you.

During late game, just hope your team's disabler is quick enough to save you.


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Altor

Member

11-02-2009

Really a better name for this thread would be "handling stealth heroes when playing low hp hero during early game". That's what I have most difficulty with. Mid and late game I can do OK, even if I've fallen behind because of a crappy early game. I almost always get more kills than deaths and a ton of assists, so I don't think I'm incompetent. In any case, I'll try laning near the middle of the map more, and maybe more potions to keep health up. What would you suggest as a first item, since the chalice is 890 gold. Null-magic mantle? And is it worth picking up first thing, risking you not even being on the same lane as the stealther?


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sTrikerT

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Senior Member

11-02-2009

avoid death by stealth character:

1. Stick to your buddy, and i mean really stick to them. In my experience, in mid game if you are Ashe and 3-4 sec walking distance away from ally, you are dead to me.

2. After you 1st core item, get a elixir or ask a strong survival teammate to get it. If assassin characters don't get 10+ kills during mid-game it's pretty gg for them. A elixir or two will limit their options to kill.

3. Jungle is dangerous if playing against good stealth, they'll find you and call friends = 4v1 gank on you

4. Half hp should not keep farming or get out of tower range, 70% hp for mid-late game, especially ALONE.

5. Basically play cautiously, don't present yourself as a open target, unless you baiting.


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Anniie

Senior Member

11-03-2009

For 450 gold I think the detect range on the oracle is terrible, but otherwise the stealth metagame is fine.


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Lemt

Senior Member

11-03-2009

As I'm playing Twitch a lot now, here are some tips:

-DON'T SOLO AGAINST TWITCH: You do NOT want to solo a lane where you know there's a Twitch. Always have backup.
-DON'T TAKE BAITS: The game starts. You go to a lane with your buddy, scout the bush, and find a lone champ sitting there. DO NOT FOLLOW. I've had early kills like this. The scouting guy tries to tie up the champ AKA bait, I unstealth and attack, Exhaust, use a pot, use heal to keep us both alive. If you see a Twitch in loading ASSUME HE'S IN YOUR LANE, specially if you can't see him.
-BEWARE OF 3v2 and 3v1: Another "neat" tactic. Twitch goes to a lane with two other people, but he's stealthed. Two champs meet two champs, they engage, Surprise! Twitch was also there. 1-2 kills, and Twitch returns to his lane. This is extra bad if there are two stealthers in a team. That solo guy? He probably has company. Also, don't assume because the map showed Twitch on a lane that he stayed there. What he can do is show himself in a lane, go stealthed to another lane, and gank up on you.
-STAY AWAY FROM THE GRASS: Usually you want to control the grass. But if you are facing Twitch without being able to see invisible, YOU CAN'T. So don't try.
-CALL M(issing)I(n)A(ction): If you see Twitch missing for too long (more than 10 seconds), or he goes off in an odd direction, or you get a bad feeling, tell your team. Something short, like "rat MIA top". It may be a false alarm, but you may also save your teammates. If Twitch goes off to try to gank, but everyone is playing defensively and he can't, he just wasted time. Also, you may want to call "rat back" when you see him again, so people can go back to being aggressive. This may spam the chat a bit, but it's worth it.
-FOLLOW THE CHAT: If Twitch is not in your lane, keep an eye on the chat. Ask people to call MIA on rat. If they call MIA, ASSUME HE'S AFTER YOU. If you are solo, low on life, or whatever, HUG THAT TOWER. Hug is NOT the same as "stand some distance behind it". It's HUG. Give it some love.
-BUY HEALTH POTIONS: Something you should ALWAYS do anyhow. Get your starting item, and a pot. If you are around 60% health use it ASAP. Do NOT wait till you are past half health. Used the potion already? BUY MORE.
-CAREFUL JUNGLING: You are playing Warwick or whatever, and jungling. They call the rat is MIA? no-one sees him again? Go to a lane. You do NOT want to be weakened fighting neutrals when the rat finds you.


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JohnCataldo

Senior Member

11-03-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altor View Post
With a good ally who focuses on the weaker we can sometimes hold them off; with a newb they either won't help or will just feed them. Honestly, what are the options here?
If you are 2v2 in a lane and your partner is bad, well, it doesn't matter if the other guys are stealth or not, you are in trouble. "My lane partner is newb" is no reason to think stealth is overpowered.

Quote:
- always hide by your tower? ok, but you'll fall behind by sitting there
It's easy to stay pretty close to your tower, get all the XP, and most or even all of the money you'd get if pushing hard. No, you won't take down the enemy tower this way. That's fine. You DON'T need to fall behind in XP or gold when doing this. Don't attack unless it's going to generate you gold. Don't pointlessly volley to damage an enemy creep wave! This just pulls you away from the safety of your tower, which doesn't help if you don't think you can safely pressure the enemy tower (i.e. the whole reason you'd want to push forward).

Don't discount this possibility. It works.


Quote:
- buy a vision ward at the beginning if you see any stealth guys on the load screen. you might not even face him in your lane, and you'll be unable to buy anything other than a really cheap items at best. Neoh you honestly use vision wards at the beginning? I've tried it and they're pretty ineffective as a whole.
I never start off with a ward vs. a single enemy stealther. I might against a teem of Twitch, Evelyn, Shaco, Teemo. =D

You seem to assume you have wait for 1000 gold (or along time) before pilling back. It's just not true, especially if you have Teleport. No, it may not be ideally "efficient". Neither is dying to Twitch. It turns out sometimes you should change how you play against different enemies.

If you put down even a single ward, enemy stealthers have to change how they play, and they usually don't know exactly where the ward is or if you have put down another one, because wards also have stealth. One ward can absolutely cover the entire area you intend to fight in. Place it so the edge of the ward is at the edge of your own towers range. Don't push past the edge of the ward! You suggest you need 3 wards to cover "the area you are fighting in". You are fighting wherever you CHOOSE to fight. Fight at the ward! You never need more than 1 in a lane during the early stages of the game. If you decide to leave the safety of the ward, you better have a good reason. (If you are doing well and pushing, sometimes I'll put the ward up near the enemy tower, because I expect to do most of my fighting there. This assumes you won't get pushed back, which is sometimes true.)

Your complaints about them not lasting long enough or being expensive just don't hold up in my experience. I often get a kill on Twitch/Evelyn if I place a ward and they don't see me do it, which more than pays for the cost of the ward.

The cooldown on Teleport is 5 minutes (some of which is shopping, etc.), wards 3 minutes. You can easily keep a ward up for most of the time you are there if you feel it's necessary (and the enemy generally doesn't know exactly when they are gone, either.) And obviously you can buy multiple wards in one trip. Apparently you don't feel it's worth it somehow, but frankly, if it keeps you from dying, it's worth it! Perhaps you'll have less free cash to play with when against stealthers. Deal with it!

Quote:
- ask for a lane switch?
Sometimes this is right. More often you just want to make sure you aren't fighting 1v2 where one of them is a stealther.

Quote:
- recall anytime you're at < 1/2 health or retreat to your turret? it takes a while to regen, or walk back if you recall, but better than dying
Yes, of course! Frankly, at the level I play at (which isn't top tier or anything), people would look at you funny for not just doing this. Heck, it's wrong to run around with low health against many non-stealthers.

If you don't have an item that gives more health regen, including health potions, you are probably "playing wrong" vs. stealthers. It's foolish to run around far from your tower below 50% health when you KNOW there are enemy stealthers around. That's asking to get ganked.


Quote:
You're Ashe and Heimer vs Eve and a hero with a stun (take your pick), how would you play? what would you buy? specifically for the first 20 minutes.
OK, so, um, Heimer is one of the best characters vs. stealth (Twitch's ultimate notwithstanding). Heim should be pushing turrets ever farther forward. If an enemy wants to attack YOU within range of 2+ of Heimer's turrets, you should just attack back and win the battle (because you didn't start that fight with low health, right?). This is one of the weirdest examples I've ever heard because it's one of the best situations for Ashe to be in.

Don't range far from Heimer's turrets. Conserve your mana and don't volley too much if that will push you too far forward. Heimer needs to keep creeping towers forward (which often means he needs to conserver his own mana as well so he can keep rebuilding them).

When you can, make sure your volley is hitting the stealther (won't be stealthed ALL the time). Keeping the enemy relatively low on health compared to you (easy for Ashe to do) will make them NOT want to ambush you, as you will have a much higher chance of winning the fight. If you have 90% health and Twitch has 50% health, you have nothing to worry about unless you are getting ganged up on (in which case you should ask for help!) Even then, you've got decent odds of killing Twitch and getting a 1-for-1 out of it (which isn't a goal but better than just dying). Ashe is one of the best characters for staying above enemy health (non-tank).

Your initial buy must include some kind of health regen, which is usually a good idea anyway. Regrowth Pendant is fine on Ashe, or something smaller and 2+ health potions. If you don't like health pots, you are probably playing wrong.

If you get to 50% or less health, play very conservatively until you are healthy again (like 80% health or higher). This shouldn't take extremely long with your health regen. If you are out of pots, don't have another health regen item, and are pretty hurt, just pill. If you are too hurt to be in the thick of the fight and that won't change soon, you should go home. Get some shopping done, potentially buy 1-2 wards or more health potions, and you're good to go.

When I have 60% health, I start playing more cautiously. Some of this is experience and knowing how much damage can be done do you by the enemies you are near, but you basically want to be healthy all the time. I've certainly consumed health potions with at 60-70% health sometimes, just to almost top myself off. (I wouldn't do this if I had a Regrowth Pendant or something like that.)


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Altor

Member

11-03-2009

Thanks for this advice, it's quite helpful.

I've definitely gotten hit or seen allies get hit with all those twitch tactics at some time or other. Especially the 2v2 or 2v1 that suddenly becomes 3v2 or 3v1 when twitch just shows up out of nowhere. Seems the counter there is good communication so it's not "out of nowhere", and being healthy so it's a harder fight.

I chose Heim cause I actually had that situation recently. I thought it would be good because of the extra support from turrets, and mostly it was, but a few times we got caught pushing to their tower, and our minions and turrets died and then we got caught while retreating to the next wave. Even had a heal, but still died. I guess I should either have retreated earlier or been at higher health (if I had a potion).

I'll shuffle my build around so I have regrowth or at least some health potions. I've typically gotten boots which helps in returning from home to the lane, and in getting away. I also do recall around 1000 gold. Anything earlier and I feel like it's not worth the time lost running back to get one more piece of equipment. However it's clearly better to stay alive than give a kill (+xp) to someone else.

" If you are out of pots, don't have another health regen item, and are pretty hurt, just pill." - sorry, what's pill?

Re wards. By 3 to cover area, I mean the lane more than where you end up fighting. So farming area. When farming it's typical to go from killing minions right under your tower to right by their tower and everywhere in-between. Just the way the cycles and waves work out, and if you can use an AOE damage spell to kill lots of minions, etc. Given that, if you use one ward, you would have to sit there waiting for the next wave for part of the time. That may be worth it anyways. Then 3 minutes later you have to spend another 150 gold? How many wards to you use in the first 20 minutes? You could easily spend 450 gold on wards, that's not being spent on equipment. Am I figuring this wrong, or is it simply still worth it to stay alive?