Leona: Comprehensive Discussion

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Tang Bohu

Senior Member

01-04-2013

I have googled this topic so many times.This is because, to be honest, I'm pissed off a little. It's kind of ridiculous that champs have varying roles, and Leona is stuck playing "aggressive support" in bottom trying to tank for the team with a philo, sightsore, and a chain vest.... Because, since it's leona we can just have her tank and pick another Assassin champ...

She is really fun to play but has been trapped in a role that really isn't meant for her. I'm not saying I wouldn't play her support. I am saying I am ****ing tired of playing her perfect and then dying in a 1v1 because my adc ran off to kill a random lone minion 40 minutes into the game.

Let's take another champ, Fiddlesticks.... Fiddlesticks is able to... Mid, jungle, and support.

Cho'Gath, Mid, jungle, solo-top. In fact, he could play a decent support too due to his kit, silence, knock-up (Although he wouldn't be a giant due to starving and lack of stacks, but it's all for the team right?)

Kayle is a rarely used support as far as I can tell, but she has the kit to be effective as it, AND she is a good situational solo-top. (Being the only real hard-counter to curbstompers like Darius)

I realize I may have some flaws in my arguement, but there I see a serious issue. I started this game in very low level normals, where nobody jungles and people pick who they like. I like tank champs and fell in love with her kit. I save a crapton of ip and buy her as like my second champ(after ashe 450-ip ashe lol) and once i really get into the game i learn once you get in higher level of play she sucks unless its the perfect situation and you can only really play her in that one way or it's going to fail.

Most of my best games as her have me doing completely retarded **** going ADC Leona and My buddy Support blitz. So, basically as it stands, Leona plays two roles: Support(Which she was never labeled, and still isn't) and Troll Team Comps.


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Aurasai

Member

01-07-2013

I am going to further explain Leona's problems with a perfect scenario example. Recently i did a ranked game with Nida as an ad carry (yes it does work and its pretty effective but not the purpose of the thread). We had an early leaver (solo que...) so i kinda got left alone vs Ashe and Leona in a 4v5 game. An early gank of the jungler got me 2 kills so i was able to afford a Tear and a couple of wards very early. With a few traps in the brush to keep Leona in check and with Q and E and the wards against ganks i was able to win my lane and outfarm Ashe alone.

Basicly what i am trying to say is:
-In that situation Leona never had the oportunity to engage in a fight, as i knew her position at all times, leaving me to safely harass Ashe and eventually win the lane, as all she was doing was sitting there leeching xp.
-When there was a gank, if Leona moves towards me it becomes too obvious of an upcoming gank, otherwise without her i can safey escape their jungler without taking any damage, while doing some in return.
-Unlike me or any other champion with some sort of sustain, Leona cannot benefit an ally in any way out of combat, leaving me to safely trade off blows when possible, as long as i keep my distance from Leona.
-Moving to lategame, judging by their team composition Leona was the one who was supposed to initiate the teamfights, but due to lack of items on both her and Ashe, we never got to such situation, further proving that Leona can ONLY be effective lategame if she wins her lane... basicly without the abillity to initiate a teamfight you can never win a game.
-I won a 4v5 game with a champion with role most people consider as a "trollpick"
note: neither Leona, nor Ashe ware playing bad with any obvious game breaking mistakes, the game was at around ~1450 elo (just starting...) but i still think it is a valuable statement as the game is needs to have balance on all levels.

IMO as an "aggressive support" she is too situational to be viable and her main purpose of a lategame (off)tank is too dependable on items she can't get when stuck in bot lane, and she most deffinetly needs access to top lane and jungle!


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Keitterman

Senior Member

01-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
I am going to further explain Leona's problems with a perfect scenario example. Recently i did a ranked game with Nida as an ad carry (yes it does work and its pretty effective but not the purpose of the thread). We had an early leaver (solo que...) so i kinda got left alone vs Ashe and Leona in a 4v5 game. An early gank of the jungler got me 2 kills so i was able to afford a Tear and a couple of wards very early. With a few traps in the brush to keep Leona in check and with Q and E and the wards against ganks i was able to win my lane and outfarm Ashe alone.

Basicly what i am trying to say is:
-In that situation Leona never had the oportunity to engage in a fight, as i knew her position at all times, leaving me to safely harass Ashe and eventually win the lane, as all she was doing was sitting there leeching xp.
-When there was a gank, if Leona moves towards me it becomes too obvious of an upcoming gank, otherwise without her i can safey escape their jungler without taking any damage, while doing some in return.
-Unlike me or any other champion with some sort of sustain, Leona cannot benefit an ally in any way out of combat, leaving me to safely trade off blows when possible, as long as i keep my distance from Leona.
-Moving to lategame, judging by their team composition Leona was the one who was supposed to initiate the teamfights, but due to lack of items on both her and Ashe, we never got to such situation, further proving that Leona can ONLY be effective lategame if she wins her lane... basicly without the abillity to initiate a teamfight you can never win a game.
-I won a 4v5 game with a champion with role most people consider as a "trollpick"
note: neither Leona, nor Ashe ware playing bad with any obvious game breaking mistakes, the game was at around ~1450 elo (just starting...) but i still think it is a valuable statement as the game is needs to have balance on all levels.

IMO as an "aggressive support" she is too situational to be viable and her main purpose of a lategame (off)tank is too dependable on items she can't get when stuck in bot lane, and she most deffinetly needs access to top lane and jungle!
I agree with you on the items, even if she does pretty good in her lane, it's hard for her to build survival from 0CS and only assists. For a "pure tank" she's one of the squishiest tanks in the game.

After that though, you mention that she's an aggressive support, and I know Nid is slippery, but it sounds like she didn't put nearly enough pressure on you for a 2v1 scenario. I mean, if you can AA her, she can zeneth you. she should have been past your minions zoning you from EXP and money, and if you tried to bully her for it, then ashe (who isn't a carry btw, just ranged AD + slows) should have made sure they stayed above in the exchange. I mean, leona has a snare, stun and aoe stun, and ashe has endless slow + giant stun arrow. Any time Leo lands W should have resulted in your death, and if not, that says more about the players than the champion.

It sounds like your jungler scared the **** out of them, and Leo didn't spend her money on wards, which is a common mistake when you feel you are behind in cash, you stop spending money on wards so you can get l2 boots, or part of an aegis, but it's a mistake, and a good way to blow an easy win.


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Aurasai

Member

01-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keitterman View Post
I agree with you on the items, even if she does pretty good in her lane, it's hard for her to build survival from 0CS and only assists. For a "pure tank" she's one of the squishiest tanks in the game.

After that though, you mention that she's an aggressive support, and I know Nid is slippery, but it sounds like she didn't put nearly enough pressure on you for a 2v1 scenario. I mean, if you can AA her, she can zeneth you. she should have been past your minions zoning you from EXP and money, and if you tried to bully her for it, then ashe (who isn't a carry btw, just ranged AD + slows) should have made sure they stayed above in the exchange. I mean, leona has a snare, stun and aoe stun, and ashe has endless slow + giant stun arrow. Any time Leo lands W should have resulted in your death, and if not, that says more about the players than the champion.

It sounds like your jungler scared the **** out of them, and Leo didn't spend her money on wards, which is a common mistake when you feel you are behind in cash, you stop spending money on wards so you can get l2 boots, or part of an aegis, but it's a mistake, and a good way to blow an easy win.
Not entirely, i had both bushes covered in traps, and if Leona is in either one of them i constantly will hit her with Javelin Toss and she will trigger a trap on every second step. The part of her being in my part of the lane and trying to deny my access to creeps proved too difficult too due to my passive with high movement speed and constant bullying on her with autoattacks and a few very painfull Qs. To be effective Leona allso needs to be at a considerable distance from Ashe, so Ashe can actually farm and even the 2 times i actually got hit Leona took a lot more damage than did to me (that i healed back) while i allways got away before Ashe can get close enough. Things got even more desperate for them when i got to level 6 before the mid lane. I think they had wards aswell but not entirely sure for how long. The thing that won the lane actually was their lack of sustain, which helped me deal a lot of damage over time with Q and AAs when possible (and the endless mana from the early Tear). The only other situation where there is a support without a sustain is actually Blitz (or a few more abstract ones), but i am not mad enough to risk an agressive play vs him...

edit: i should say however that i love playing ad carry Nidalee with an ally Leona on my lane


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Keitterman

Senior Member

01-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
Not entirely, i had both bushes covered in traps, and if Leona is in either one of them i constantly will hit her with Javelin Toss and she will trigger a trap on every second step. The part of her being in my part of the lane and trying to deny my access to creeps proved too difficult too due to my passive with high movement speed and constant bullying on her with autoattacks and a few very painfull Qs. To be effective Leona allso needs to be at a considerable distance from Ashe, so Ashe can actually farm and even the 2 times i actually got hit Leona took a lot more damage than did to me (that i healed back) while i allways got away before Ashe can get close enough. Things got even more desperate for them when i got to level 6 before the mid lane. I think they had wards aswell but not entirely sure for how long. The thing that won the lane actually was their lack of sustain, which helped me deal a lot of damage over time with Q and AAs when possible (and the endless mana from the early Tear). The only other situation where there is a support without a sustain is actually Blitz (or a few more abstract ones), but i am not mad enough to risk an agressive play vs him...

edit: i should say however that i love playing ad carry Nidalee with an ally Leona on my lane
That just seems very odd, I'd have loved to see the enemy Leo's starting kit and what she bought. Sustain isn't normally an issue when you're spec'd down the support tree... oh that's probably the problem.


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Dark Kuno

Senior Member

01-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keitterman View Post
That just seems very odd, I'd have loved to see the enemy Leo's starting kit and what she bought. Sustain isn't normally an issue when you're spec'd down the support tree... oh that's probably the problem.
The problem is that going full on 21+ Util tree doesn't work for Leona in S3 because of the health nerfs and the ArP buffs.

The utility abilities below the 3rd tier (except for Explorer and 1 point in Wealth) are just not worth giving up more effective defensive masteries that will actually keep Leona alive in a fight long enough to actually do something more than get off 1 combo and being blown up.

My Leona build lately is 0/15/15, still working out the best runes, but its starting to look like scaling health Yellows may be the better option than Armor or Gp10's. Unsure about % health at the moment but could work. will probably require more testing to figure out which provides more health over the course of the game.

That said, in a team fight I will rather kill ANY other target than Leona, since between cd's she has virtually no damage output. And If you kill her teammates 1st, you also remove 50% of her damage contribution in the fight since again, she has no access to the damage in her passive.


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Keitterman

Senior Member

01-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Kuno View Post
The problem is that going full on 21+ Util tree doesn't work for Leona in S3 because of the health nerfs and the ArP buffs.

The utility abilities below the 3rd tier (except for Explorer and 1 point in Wealth) are just not worth giving up more effective defensive masteries that will actually keep Leona alive in a fight long enough to actually do something more than get off 1 combo and being blown up.

My Leona build lately is 0/15/15, still working out the best runes, but its starting to look like scaling health Yellows may be the better option than Armor or Gp10's. Unsure about % health at the moment but could work. will probably require more testing to figure out which provides more health over the course of the game.

That said, in a team fight I will rather kill ANY other target than Leona, since between cd's she has virtually no damage output. And If you kill her teammates 1st, you also remove 50% of her damage contribution in the fight since again, she has no access to the damage in her passive.
I don't agree with you on the support tree, i think it's pretty nice, and one of the only ways i've gotten over the loss of HoG. The on-hit recieve 5g (5 sec CD) allows you to watch for opportunity to poke a champ and get out, and as long as you do taht once every 20 sec or so, you're about comparable to the HoG's gp5, after that, you're leaving 6% cdr and 3% move speed.

That move speed is a pretty big deal, and if HP is leona's bread, CDR is her butter.

You can get a full 21 support tree while still getting veteran's scars, all you're gonna leave on the table of any merit is juggernaught, tenaciouse, and relentless


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ninbushido

Senior Member

01-12-2013

Wow nice to see so much support on my thread! I'm going to try to re-post this on GD to get more attention, but sadly GD is not working at the moment apparently.


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Dark Kuno

Senior Member

01-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keitterman View Post
I don't agree with you on the support tree, i think it's pretty nice, and one of the only ways i've gotten over the loss of HoG. The on-hit recieve 5g (5 sec CD) allows you to watch for opportunity to poke a champ and get out
Except for the part where Leona can't get out. Pickpocket works best on supports that have ranged AA or Melee support that can actually make use of hit and run tactics. Leona is neither of those.

She is an all-in aggressive style champ. Once she goes in she's in until the conclusion of the fight, for better or worse. If she goes in on someone its to get a kill, not to slowly wear them down.

Quote:
and as long as you do that once every 20 sec or so, you're about comparable to the HoG's gp5, after that, you're leaving 6% cdr and 3% move speed.
Sightstone is the replacement for HoG. It actually provides higher monetary benefit than HoG did because over the course of the game it saves more money on ward purchases than HoG provided passively. And the upgrade provides even further monetary easing from the increased number of wards it provides and 100 more health than HoG offered.

Edit: but we're gotten sidetracked from the primary topic of addressing the problems with Leona's design


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ChampAtog

Senior Member

01-12-2013

Leona doesn't need anything, she's a strong champ.