Leona: Comprehensive Discussion

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Aurasai

Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by invincible13matt View Post
Why do I have to kowtow to the design team and the majority? Why do I have to keep a champion in the role they are currently in?
So basicly you are suggesting Leona being removed, and the next tank being put in the game who has a skillset wich has nothing to with hers, yet is actually viable, be named "Leona" and share her visual model...
Quote:
Originally Posted by invincible13matt View Post
If you hadn't noticed, all/most of the past remakes of champions have resulted in a shift of their role. Why? Because their kits were flawed in the first place and needed a change. A champ having changes made to their kit will lose something by necessity - or the design gets cluttered, hard to balance, and/or overpowered.

Restricting yourself to changes that do not alter Leona's supporting power is a limited approach. In reality, a loss of her "support" aspect is likely desirable if you are one of the people who actually want her to be the tank she supposed to be.
Every rework that has ever happened to any champion in the game is based on player feedback!
Lets see... if we check the reworks:
Morgana - (considering the beta) same as before
Sivir - same as before
Katarina - same as before
Xin - same as before
Heimerdinger - the leaked reworked seems to be pretty much the same
Twitch - same as before
Evelynn - she had no prefered lane... reworking her just made her viable
pretty sure these are not all... these are just the one i can think of atm
Each of them don't have their playstyle changed in any way, just slightly shifted, to offer more depth to the champions and fix some of their problems. Change in meta and champion reworks are very different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by invincible13matt View Post
Honestly, I don't care how many people play her. At the moment, I don't even care if she's "good" after the remake - that is a priority that comes after making her an actual tank, when the large sample size provided by the testing allows an adequate assessment of the strengths of her new kit.

It's important to remember, "If you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one."
Than why waste energy on something that is not of any concern to you?
It's important to remember, "If you are not going to benefit from the change offered on something, don't bother changing something that is allready accepted by the people who appreciate it."


Quote:
Originally Posted by invincible13matt View Post
I think it should be a constant pulse (rather than what I think is a shrinking interval between the first and second pulses?) and I don't see why it's not just a raw toggle rather than something with a cooldown and condition.
Tactic, decision, something requiring timing, "fun", why not change all skillshots in the game to click on target abilities, as they are easier?


Quote:
Originally Posted by invincible13matt View Post
Your changes don't alter Zenith Blade's ability to keep Leona attached to a target. Only the reduced cool down does that, and that doesn't require your changes.
Simple, old E, attack AD carry, use E for some damage, you are no longer in melee range of the AD carry. New E, Attack AD carry, use E for some damage, don't activate E again, you are in melee range of the AD carry. It may save a time for just for 1-3 more autoattacks but often that is all that is needed.

It seems we are about to go to a point where we are talking about a subject irrelevent to the purpose of this thread...


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Aurasai

Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
Ok, how about these changes:
Sunlight (passive)
old
Leona's spells charge any enemy unit damaged with Sunlight for 3.5 seconds. When allied champions deal any damage to those targets they consume the Sunlight debuff to deal 20 / 35 / 50 / 65 / 80 / 95 / 110 / 125 / 140 additional magic damage. This additional damage is counted as the ally's damage and it will benefit from their magic penetration. Leona is unable to activate the additional damage herself.
new
Leona's spells charge an enemy unit with damaged with Sunlight for 3 seconds. Over the duration of the effect target takes 10/15/20/25/30/35/40/45 (+5% of AP) magic damage each second. Stacks up to 3 times. When an allied champion deal any damage to the target he deals magic damage equal to the remaining damage to be dealt to the enemy unit, consuming all stacks. This additional damage is counted as the ally's damage and it will benefit from their magic penetration. Leona is unable to activate the additional damage herself.

Eclipse (W)
old:
Cooldown: 14
Cost: 60 mana
Active: Leona gains bonus armor and magic resistance for 3 seconds. When the effect ends she deals damage to enemies within 275 range of her. If Eclipse damages any enemies, the bonuses remain for an additional 3 seconds.

Armor, magic resistance: 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 / 70
Magic damage: 60 / 110 / 160 / 210 / 260 (+ 40% AP)
new:
Cooldown: 10
Cost: 60 mana
Passive: Leona gains bonus armor and magic resistance. While this spell is active she loses these bonus stats.

Armor, magic resistance: 5/10/15/20/25

Active: Leona gains bonus armor and magic resistance for 3 seconds. After 2 seconds she deals damage to enemies within 275 range of her. If Eclipse damages any enemies, 1 additional second is added to the duration, dealing damage again and consuming 10 mana. This abillity can be toggled off.

Armor, magic resistance: 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 / 70
Magic damage: 20 / 40 / 55 / 70 / 90 (+ 15% AP)

Zenith Blade(E)
old:
Range: 700
Cooldown: 13 / 12 / 11 / 10 / 9
Cost: 60 mana

Active: Leona projects a solar image of her sword, dealing damage to all enemies in a line. Leona will dash to the last enemy champion struck, briefly immobilizing it as she does.

Magic damage: 60 / 100 / 140 / 180 / 220 (+ 40% AP)

new:
Range: 700
Cooldown: 12 / 11 / 10 / 9 / 8
Cost: 60 mana

Active: Leona projects a solar image of her sword, dealing damage to all enemies in a line and immobilizing them and marking the last enemy champion stuck giving vision for 1 second. Leona may activate this abillity again to dash to the marked enemy champion, instantly attacking the target and consuming the mark. Upon activation, or after the mark expires the spell goes on cooldown.

Magic damage: 60 / 100 / 140 / 180 / 220 (+ 40% AP)

A few words behind every change:
Passive: dealing the same damage when alone as with an ally (just slower) allows her to go where she wants to go, and farm effectively. It helps Riot keep on the faulted idea of her passive not being a Lux's clone.

W: the passive element makes jungle easier, and gives her some free armor+mres, wich can allways come in handy. Note again: these bonus armor+mres are not in effect when Eclipse is activated! It is explained in great detail why a Amumu-ish DoT is needed. The scaling and damage is slightly higher than before considering counting it for 3 seconds (3 times). The abillity can be toggled off for obvious reasons. Ofc the cooldown starts after this abillity gets on cooldown, and for this reason it is lowered by 4 seconds. The trick here is that to keep this abillity on Leona must stay in the fight, dealing damage with Eclipse to at least 1 target each second! The 2 second delay is to help Leona stay hidden when setting an ambush/ganking, and to make positioning the AOE easier.

E: A big problem with Leona i am pretty sure many have noticed is willing to take the risk of engaging in a blind battle. Giving vision to the target and making you think "is it worth taking the risk?" is focused in this exact problem. Note: the vision on target does not reveal stealthed targets, but you can still dash to them... without the idea where exactly! It only reveals them briefly (about 0,25 sec) when they first take damage and at the moment you dash to them. You can activate this abillity at the exact moment it hits the target, or you can wait for it, trading the quicker use when the cooldown is off for a few moments to think. This is partly the reason why the cooldown is lowered by a second. Again explained why a immobilize on all targets is needed in previous posts!

So any feedback?? If you don't understand any part of the suggestions... ASK!!!
edit: 10 % AP bonus damage on passive per second is actually pretty high so i replaced it with 5
edit 2: Duration on mark on last hit enemy champion set to 1 second from 1,5.
Reposted for those who would ignore checking the previous page...


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

invincible13matt

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

11-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
So basicly you are suggesting Leona being removed, and the next tank being put in the game who has a skillset wich has nothing to with hers, yet is actually viable, be named "Leona" and share her visual model...
Yes, because changing 2 skills really makes a champion not the same one any more.

You know, your replies are starting to sound like all the people who complained about the removal of Kayle's old passive, Eve's old ult, Twitch's debilitating poison... in loud, screechy voices and with totally unreasonable arguments.

Now, to actually reply... no, not necessarily. You're overreacting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
Than why waste energy on something that is not of any concern to you?
It's important to remember, "If you are not going to benefit from the change offered on something, don't bother changing something that is allready accepted by the people who appreciate it."
Idiot fool. When did I say I didn't care?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
Tactic, decision, something requiring timing, "fun", why not change all skillshots in the game to click on target abilities, as they are easier?
Frankly, it reeks of design much like Syndra's - complexity for the sake of being complex, which is not good. And none of these things explain why you worded it so poorly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
Simple, old E, attack AD carry, use E for some damage, you are no longer in melee range of the AD carry. New E, Attack AD carry, use E for some damage, don't activate E again, you are in melee range of the AD carry. It may save a time for just for 1-3 more autoattacks but often that is all that is needed.
How the heck did the AD carry get away in the first case? And how did you get close to the AD carry in the second?

The only difference it would make is if they blinked away after you hit them with Zenith Blade... but why would they blink away if you weren't on top of them already, and if you're already on top of them, why are you using Zenith Blade anyway? Especially in your hypothetical kit, where you should be getting plenty of damage from Eclipse anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
It seems we are about to go to a point where we are talking about a subject irrelevent to the purpose of this thread...
When last I checked, this thread was still about Leona. So we're not even close to trains yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
Reposted for those who would ignore checking the previous page...
Why would you even waste space for that? If they can't be bothered to look back one freakin' page for context...they don't deserve to be involved.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Eydolon

Senior Member

11-16-2012

bump

Guys now what about the absence of heart of gold? thats not helping leona at all


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Silvulf Odinkin

Junior Member

11-16-2012

Maybe give her a little more base AD? I feel like she could be an amazing solo top if only that were the case


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Fargo79

Senior Member

11-20-2012

Bump!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Simply Leggy

Junior Member

11-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
Reposted for those who would ignore checking the previous page...
I think this is a pretty good idea. Like the proposed Eclipse change the best.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Aurasai

Member

11-23-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
Sunlight (passive)
Leona's spells charge an enemy unit with damaged with Sunlight for 3 seconds. Over the duration of the effect target takes 10/15/20/25/30/35/40/45 (+5% of AP) magic damage each second. Stacks up to 3 times. When an allied champion deal any damage to the target he deals magic damage equal to the remaining damage to be dealt to the enemy unit, consuming all stacks. This additional damage is counted as the ally's damage and it will benefit from their magic penetration. Leona is unable to activate the additional damage herself.

Eclipse (W)
Cooldown: 10
Cost: 60 mana
Passive: Leona gains bonus armor and magic resistance. While this spell is active she loses these bonus stats.

Armor, magic resistance: 5/10/15/20/25

Active: Leona gains bonus armor and magic resistance for 3 seconds. After 2 seconds she deals damage to enemies within 275 range of her. If Eclipse damages any enemies, 1 additional second is added to the duration, dealing damage again and consuming 10 mana. This abillity can be toggled off.

Armor, magic resistance: 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 / 70
Magic damage: 20 / 40 / 55 / 70 / 90 (+ 15% AP)

Zenith Blade(E)
Range: 700
Cooldown: 12 / 11 / 10 / 9 / 8
Cost: 60 mana

Active: Leona projects a solar image of her sword, dealing damage to all enemies in a line and immobilizing them and marking the last enemy champion stuck giving vision for 1 second. Leona may activate this abillity again to dash to the marked enemy champion, instantly attacking the target and consuming the mark. Upon activation, or after the mark expires the spell goes on cooldown.

Magic damage: 60 / 100 / 140 / 180 / 220 (+ 40% AP)
bump


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Onimallar

Senior Member

12-01-2012

Why not make her hybrid? Keep her current ratios but give her:

.1/.2/.3/.4 AD on her shield
.2/.4/.6/.8 AD on her Zenith blade?

makes her a viable bottom tank, top, and increases her jungling.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Aurasai

Member

12-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onimallar View Post
Why not make her hybrid? Keep her current ratios but give her:

.1/.2/.3/.4 AD on her shield
.2/.4/.6/.8 AD on her Zenith blade?

makes her a viable bottom tank, top, and increases her jungling.
The early rates are too low to make any differance, the higher rates are too high. To make Leona viable it is not her rates that should be changed, it is her design. With the suggested rate changes and nothing else she is still locked into a single bot lane, she is still easily countered at top making it a bad choice and she would still take half the game to finish the jungle camps. With the suggested “too high” late AD rates if somehow you manage to not get countered you would be just as good as every other champion that can go at top lane (who doesn’t share that risk), unless they are exploited of going full AD, which changes the idea behind Leona entirely.
I think for "damage Leona" to be viable is to not give her a rate on a stat she doesn't need, but to make AP more usefull for her. For example even with the new S3 items (see here: http://www.reignofgaming.net/news/22...ems-patch-nami not all the information in the link is correct), unlike AP, there are no AD items with mres and the only "AD" items with Armor are Atma and Frozen Fist (which I find as a must have item if playing tanky damage dealer Leona, regardless of AD or AP)... one benefits only from high health (basicly Frozen Mallet only) and the other is actually an AP item that scales off of base AD (regardless of how much bonus AD you have). Leona can easily balance with AP and health/armor/mres while with AD she can’t. Now before you start that I have absolutely no idea what AD Leona is… personally I’ve tried AD offtank builds at top lane on her, but even if I don’t get countered I don’t any reason I should pick her, over Riven for example.
(wall of text incoming... will try to spice it up a bit)
And now on ”how to make her viable with something that works, while not making her OP?” Basically with her current kit she has a nice burst (early to mid game), but other than that she just derps around till cooldowns are up again. I even think that she is a good tank and even a good damage dealer, for the first 9 levels of the game. As I have said before Leona is highly risk based and that is the reason she is not viable apart of pub games. There are 3 scenarios (most common, as electricity/internet running out or getting your internet cables stolen usually applies only to my region in Eastern Europe), 1st of which you fight against opponents who lack the basic concept of “awareness”, “hard cc” and “playing safe against opponents that overpower you in a fight (which you do get a lot in Normal games), in which case both Leona and “someone else” get fed, and their opponents write in the forum that “Leona is fine” (for everyone who feels offended by this… you fill my heart with joy!), or the other (and more often) in which case there is a very boring game in bot lane where nothing happens and Leona suddenly realizes she is no longer a “support”, but a tank without any tanking items, and the 3rd which is a reverse of the 1st. Another tank-ish problem in the second scenario is that she is a threat only when engaging in a fight, till she blows all her cooldowns, usually the moment the teamfight starts.
I think a way to make Leona viable without making her OP is to extend her damage, dealing lower damage initially, but more as the fight goes on, going up considerably. This way she could definitely pose a threat and have a reason to commit in the fight, not only join in, blow cooldowns and be done with it. I did a bit of rework to my suggestions on page 19. I will start with Eclipse. There is already plenty of explanations on why it should be damage over duration, than burst damage so I am not going to repeat them… apart of what I said 2 sentences ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
Eclipse (W)

Cooldown: 10
Cost: 60 mana

Active: Leona gains bonus armor and magic resistance for 3 seconds. After 2 seconds she deals damage to enemies within 275 range of her. If Eclipse damages any enemies, 1 additional second is added to the duration, dealing damage again and consuming 10 mana. This abillity can be toggled off.

Armor, magic resistance: 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 / 70
Magic damage: 20 / 40 / 55 / 70 / 90 (+ 10% AP)
Lets give example at level 5 of Eclipse:
with the old Eclipse the damage is 260 (+40% of AP) over 3 seconds. With the new Eclipse over 3 seconds it may trigger up to 2 times dealing 180 (+20% of AP), dealing less damage initially, but more damage afterwards. (90 (+10% AP) each second). Mana consumption is added to deal with the extended duration. The cooldown is also higher as Eclipse goes on cooldown the moment it is no longer active. Now its turn for the passive:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurasai View Post
Sunburn (passive)
Leona's spells charge an enemy unit with Sunburn for 2 seconds. Over the duration of the effect targets with sunburn have their magic resistance and armor reduced by 8 and take 10/15/20/25/30/35 (level 1/6/9/12/15/18) (+5% of AP) magic damage each second. Stacks up to 3 times.
About the name, I think sunburn it’s more fitting, but personally I would not give a rat’s arse how it’s called if any of the changes are accepted. Now I looked through a lot of examples and think this would be the most “balanced”. The reason behind Leona doing damage with her own passive instead of someone else like before: I think her flawed passive is the root of all of Leona’s problems. She is chained to a role she was not designed to be. Adding constriction to the design of a champion greatly limits its potential. Allowing Leona to deal damage from her passive would be just enough for her to finish jungle camps faster than it took me to grow long hair and a beard (in tribute to my warrior ancestors), allowing her to be an effective ganker and allow her to be viable at top lane.
Before I go on with the thought process behind the passive rework, I would like to add that I am not looking to improve Leona’s early game as a support in bot lane in any way. I am trying to leave that spot unchanged, as the majority of Leona players would prefer to stay there, while improving her lategame. Another important thing is that the new Eclipse is going to stack Sunlight… a lot. Now I don’t have a personal test server (, Riot,) I can only guess (by doing some calculations as I am a student with nothing better to do…) how much this would impact her damage output. Partly the reason of the change I am suggesting is to increase it, as it is obviously needed. If the damage is too high Eclipse can just refresh sunlight, instead of stacking it up. One way to fix too many Sunlight procs due to Eclipse is to change it from direct damage to DoT. Now getting to the “technical” stuff:
Once you trigger Sunlight(/burn) the timer starts, on the 1st and 2nd second target will take damage and the passive will end. If you cast 2 spells before the first second, Sunlight will be at 2 stacks until the 2nd second. Basically each stack will be in effect at least once before it is changed, resetting the timer each time. To bring some sense to my explanation:
-cast Q+E instantly damage = 1stack+2stacks+2stacks
-cast E and W activates 1,9 seconds later =1stack+1stack+2stacks+2stacks
-cast Q+E with W activating all in 1 sec =1stack+2stacks+3stacks+3stacks
2 examples of previous “possible passive reworks”:
old Sunlight that Leona can activate: turns out she deals more damage each time Eclipse procs than most champions in the game;
passive stacking up to 3 times over 3 seconds, with an ally able to activate the effect for full damage: imagine Leona doing her burst with 4 spells, stacking Sunlight 3 times and refreshing it, Vayne pops out of nowhere with a random autoattack deals 500 damage to a random 9 lvl squishy instantly disintegrating it, than imagine Leona running around the map at lvl 6+ doing this with a help of a random ally to a random enemy below random enemy turrets;
And now we get to this point:
-the passive should not change how Leona performs at bot lane (if not for the better) – let’s be honest, the killing blow to the enemy champion usually isn’t Leona’s passive so I would not worry about a DoT stealing my kills there.
-the passive should help your allies – the reason it has a armor+mres reduction. Also making your enemies die faster is just as helpful.
-should allow her to perform well in jungle and solo top lane – we got that covered!
-should not do higher damage initially than the old passive – again… Eclipse procing passive more often greatly increases Leona’s damage (example at level 9): 80 damage to 20 per stack per second up to 60 damage per 3 stacks per second

All of these changes will make Leona perform better as a tank, as she will pose a threat to the enemy team and therefore she would have a reason to be attacked and fill the role she was designed for. With most of the new items and masteries from S3 I think her support spot is improved and with the ability of leaving bot lane, she can afford all these shiny new S3 tank/tanky AP items as-well.