I feel like picking is unbalanced in ranked.

First Riot Post
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DreaMSs

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Member

06-21-2012

First pick is just way to amazing you can just not ban jax and make them waste a vote on it then you can still lock GP if they ban Jax.


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R3dund4ncy

Senior Member

06-21-2012

They just carried the 5v5 method over to the 3v3 for simplicity.I noticed this as well, that blue basically gets to pick counters for ALL OF PURPLE'S team, while taking the first pick. In 5v5, the first pick is less important, and the fact that purple gets another double pick kind of balances out a little bit more.

That said, purple gets last pick instead, so if they notice that the other team has minimal CC or some heavy AD carries or something, they can choose a champion that goes well against that. For example, in a 3v3 with no CC, Darius is incredibly strong.


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Bloodline

Member

06-21-2012

"Fairly balanced, everyone gets their shot. HOWEVER this is the format it follows in twisted treeline:
1 STRONG pick for blue
2 random picks for purple, having only one enemy to go on
2 counter picks for blue, to those two picks made by purple
1 counterpick for purple."


I would just like to point out that with this format it should look a little more like:

Blue Team's first pick: (A strong, competent champion).
Purple Team's first counter: (A good, hard counter to the first champion chosen).
Purple Team's first strong pick: (A strong, competent champion).
Blue Team's counter pick for the oppositions strong pick: (A good, hard counter).
Blue Team's Jungler: (An overall good Jungler).
Purple Team's Jungler: (Either an overall good Jungler as well, or a counter to their Jungler).


Of course the selections may vary from team to team depending on their strategy and/or intended team composition; however, when it all boils down to it both teams are capable of having an edge in different aspects of the champion select. By "both teams are capable of having an edge" I mean that blue team has the first pick and can choose the strongest champion that is readily available, perhaps someone who is hard to counter; for the purple team, however, they can counter the third champion selected by the blue team. I believe the current format is fine just the way it is as both teams get counter picks and a chance to choose some of the more stronger champions to evolve their team composition around.
I'd also like to mention that baiting is also a big influence in the champion select screen, as most teams will go for a specific "over-powered" champion which can very well be like signing the game over if they are not cautious. I am pretty sure every champion has a suitable counter pick, if not many.


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PurpleURP

Senior Member

06-22-2012

i'm glad you are here nome
TT needs you


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Nome or Die

Game Designer

06-22-2012
2 of 2 Riot Posts

So would "first ban/second pick" be better than "first ban/first pick"?


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Phracture

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Member

06-22-2012

@RiotNome That could change the balance some actually. I kind of like that idea. I think it could be a viable way to do picks.

The 1 pick per turn and 1 ban per turn would make the queue take forever and this can change some of the balance issues. I'm up for this idea, what does everyone else think?

(also it really is great to see red posts. I had given up on the TT forums and decided to give it a look today and was pleasantly surprised.)


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MiAm PiZzA2

Junior Member

06-22-2012

Totally true...I hate to pick without knowing the ennemy team's chars T.T


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MiAm PiZzA2

Junior Member

06-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
So would "first ban/second pick" be better than "first ban/first pick"?
No...it would stay the same because there will be a team picking 2 champs while not knowing of the other team's chars...


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Clubbems

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Senior Member

06-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
So would "first ban/second pick" be better than "first ban/first pick"?
Though I wouldn't be opposed to this change, I don't feel this is the problem. Though funny story (yay story time) about first pick first ban. When it was 4 bans, it was first ban second pick, and my friends and I knew this. When it got switched to 6 bans, my friend and I thought we'd play some ranked TT, and on seeing we weren't first ban, we baited out them not banning tryndamere, only to realize that they had first pick and first ban.
We got stomped by the third highest rated tryndamere in TT at the time.

The problem isn't necessarily who gets first ban, it's more that blue team's picks are imbalanced. It has nothing to do with the ban order.

Whoever gets first pick (regardless of who gets first ban) gets to ban people that counter their play style, and FORCE the second picking team to ban out scary first picks. (Tryndamere and whoever you consider god tier)

So the situation would go like this, in current pick system.
Blue ban: Mundo
Purp ban: Tryndamere
Blue ban: Gangplank
Purp ban: Lee Sin
Blue ban: Jax
Purp ban: Kennen

Blue then instalocks someone like Darius or Yorick, which are very unfortunate to play against in TT. (I believe my team's yorick player has like 80% win ratio in TT with him.)

Then purp gets to pick two people, only knowing that blue picked Darius/Yorick.

So let's say they pick, Renekton and Cass.

Blue now gets to pick two people that counter Ren and Cass, say:

It might as well be blindpick for the first two picks on purple.
Kassadin and Gragas, two people that can severely mess up their ults.

Purple now has ONE champion to attempt to counter either or both of the two.

It might as well be blind pick. "We know they're going to pick tryndamere, we might as well counter for that. Oh look they got two other good champs."

In the situation I propose it would go a bit more like this:

Blue ban: Mundo
Purp ban: Tryndamere
Blue ban: Gangplank
Purp ban: Lee Sin
Blue ban: Jax
Purp ban: Kennen

Blue locks Darius, a very formidable first pick.

Purp locks Shen (Counters his ult quite nicely.)

Blue locks Cassiopeia

Purp locks Gragas

Blue then decides they want hybrid, goes Yorick.

Purp then can choose to counter Yorick, Cass, or Darius, or pick a random champion they feel will complete their team.


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D4RK3W0LF

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Senior Member

06-24-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffum View Post
Now, I play ranked 3v3s occasionally with my friend. We topped out in a gold rating before getting stomped by some better players, but that was before the 6 bans change.

Now, with 6 bans, though it's irrelevant, I feel like blue is a winner in every way during picks.

In 5v5s, you have an equal counter opportunity:
1 strong pick for blue, someone you HAVE to get or the other team will first.
2 strong picks for Purple
2 strong picks for blue
2 counter picks for purple
2 counter picks for blue
1 counter pick for purple.

Fairly balanced, everyone gets their shot. HOWEVER this is the format it follows in twisted treeline:
1 STRONG pick for blue
2 random picks for purple, having only one enemy to go on
2 counter picks for blue, to those two picks made by purple
1 counterpick for purple.

See what's wrong here? Purple has to pick 2/3 of their team knowing only 1/3 of the enemy team, where as blue gets to pick 2/3 of their team knowing 2/3 of their team, WHILE getting the first pick benefit.
Purple having last pick does not help in any way shape or form.

My proposed fix for this is to make the format

1 blue ban
1 purp ban
1 blue ban
1 purp ban
1 blue ban
1 purp ban
1 blue pick
1 purp pick
1 blue pick
1 purp pick
1 blue pick
1 purp pick.

TL;DR chain of picking, bans and picks both go one at a time. This would mean that:
Blue gets one STRONG pick
Purp gets one also strong or counter pick
Blue gets one strong/counter
purple gets one strong/counter
Blue gets one counter
purple gets one counter.

This would eliminate the imbalance between blue's picking and purple's picking.

Edit: 150 views, one upvote and no posts? Do you people agree, disagree? or just not care?
This is actually the ONLY reason why I don't play ranked 3v3. Pick/ban system is same as it is on SR, which is epic stupid. I have been playing 3v3 for years, and always wanted this.