To Those Who Think its alright to not have a jungler

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StevieStevinson

Junior Member

06-18-2012

So I just carried my team into an early win in normal draft, no big deal. But its all because the other team thought that they'd be smart and pit two against our solo top (a Poppy). I Worwicked to farm both the jungles and made sure to always have both buffs when I ganked. My end score was 11-0-3 (mostly on top then bot). We only had two deaths from our team. So in conclusion, no jungle, no strength.


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HonorableGeneral

Senior Member

06-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevieStevinson View Post
So I just carried my team into an early win in normal draft, no big deal. But its all because the other team thought that they'd be smart and pit two against our solo top (a Poppy). I Worwicked to farm both the jungles and made sure to always have both buffs when I ganked. My end score was 11-0-3 (mostly on top then bot). We only had two deaths from our team. So in conclusion, no jungle, no strength.
You're assuming your solo top can handle his lane. What if top managed to run a successful kill lane and destroy your Poppy? You can't camp lane forever - otherwise you'll fall behind in exp and gold. Jungling works if your solo top and your jungler are good at coordinating.

If your solo top is dead weight, jungle = no strength.


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StevieStevinson

Junior Member

06-18-2012

Oh we didn't succeed at holding top, but i was too fed and i ripped them everytime we had to gank. Poppy was low so when he helped me i'd let him get last hit a few times. If they'd just solo-ed him and had a jungle it would had been quite tougher.


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Covenant

Senior Member

06-18-2012

Even if your top can't hold too well, a fed jungle presence can make it really rough for the other lanes.

I was Nasus versus an Alistar + Jax combo, and as anyone can say that's a nasty stun combo for a lone Nasus up top, so it was no surprise Alistar+Jax were diving me under tower and I did die twice in lane phase. But them not having a jungle made it hard for them to hold on, and soon we had some roaming action with mid being forced to B a lot, their buffs being fed to our team, and all I had to do was hold on for about 15 minutes until my team rolled up top and we smashed them flat 5v3 and there was no way for them to make up that lost time.

Even in pretty much Best Case Scenarios, not having a jungler is a problem, so long as top can defend their tower a little and the jungle is a solid jungle.

Not jungling is admitting to not being interested in map or buff control, which is a terrible idea, as well as giving up a lot of gold to the enemy. You CAN do okay but it's always a more selfish decision to.

Still, if you're going to do it, do it with a Carry+Support kill lane and farm the champion. Don't push the lane. And if you can, take a top who can roam a little or steal some from the jungle. Maybe Nunu or Cho or someone--so they can act as a wardbot and stun/disabler for the early game and then help control the buffs a little. My team only held together because I was talking to them the whole time in chat, asking for help and explaining the situation. They didn't panic and we planned for a mid-game solution and it worked.


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Kaoelith

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Senior Member

06-18-2012

even if top feeds, the jungler is still getting xp and farm just from creeps alone

a jungler also puts pressure on the support to ward more that the team without it, and also more pressure in general on all lanes vs being worried about jungler come to gank if you push a lane or harass too hard


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HonorableGeneral

Senior Member

06-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant View Post
Even if your top can't hold too well, a fed jungle presence can make it really rough for the other lanes.

I was Nasus versus an Alistar + Jax combo, and as anyone can say that's a nasty stun combo for a lone Nasus up top, so it was no surprise Alistar+Jax were diving me under tower and I did die twice in lane phase. But them not having a jungle made it hard for them to hold on, and soon we had some roaming action with mid being forced to B a lot, their buffs being fed to our team, and all I had to do was hold on for about 15 minutes until my team rolled up top and we smashed them flat 5v3 and there was no way for them to make up that lost time.

Even in pretty much Best Case Scenarios, not having a jungler is a problem, so long as top can defend their tower a little and the jungle is a solid jungle.

Not jungling is admitting to not being interested in map or buff control, which is a terrible idea, as well as giving up a lot of gold to the enemy. You CAN do okay but it's always a more selfish decision to.

Still, if you're going to do it, do it with a Carry+Support kill lane and farm the champion. Don't push the lane. And if you can, take a top who can roam a little or steal some from the jungle. Maybe Nunu or Cho or someone--so they can act as a wardbot and stun/disabler for the early game and then help control the buffs a little. My team only held together because I was talking to them the whole time in chat, asking for help and explaining the situation. They didn't panic and we planned for a mid-game solution and it worked.
Usually I dislike people who instalock jungle as I'm always the last to pick (everyone picks so **** fast) and I usually get stuck solo top. While that's a dream for most people for me its an utter nightmare as I'm terrible at solo-topping. I have three viable solo tops - Jax, GP, and Teemo - and regardless of what I do I usually end up giving up the top tower just so I can get some **** farm.

Pretty much most solo tops for me either go me giving up turret or me feeding endlessly (5/16 Jax against a Garen who dived me millions of times - no joke either), so I usually shun away from it in favor of mid lane.

If I do get forced into solo top I'm very passive. I used to be rather aggressive but this led to a lot of unnecessary tower diving so now I barely harass at all, usually just going for last hits and the occasional spell harass to make sure the enemy solo top doesn't walk all over me.


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Covenant

Senior Member

06-18-2012

If you're very uncomfortable with top then I'd say taking Clairvoyance would help a lot, and being passive really isn't so bad.

GP should be able to buy plenty of wards from his farm potential and with Clair you are nearly never going to be ganked or surprised if an enemy is a bush-hiding nublet. Your goal int the first 15 minutes or so is simply to FARM, not to get kills, so keep yourself healthy and farm farm farm.

If you do that you've won your lane, or stalemated it, which is all you need.


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HonorableGeneral

Senior Member

06-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant View Post
If you're very uncomfortable with top then I'd say taking Clairvoyance would help a lot, and being passive really isn't so bad.

GP should be able to buy plenty of wards from his farm potential and with Clair you are nearly never going to be ganked or surprised if an enemy is a bush-hiding nublet. Your goal int the first 15 minutes or so is simply to FARM, not to get kills, so keep yourself healthy and farm farm farm.

If you do that you've won your lane, or stalemated it, which is all you need.
GP is probably my strongest top-laner, since I can basically spam my Parlay for both gold and for harass as soon as I buy my Philo Stone. Teemo comes close second because he's a bit too squishy for a solo top and his poison means he generally pushes lane (making me susceptible to ganks and accentuating the squishiness factor). Jax, despite being my favorite, is ironically my worst because his early-game pre-6 is SO BAD compared to other solo-tops and by time I hit level 6 I'm usually being roflstomped by the enemy solo-top because they've been farming up while I've been licking my wounds.

Regardless I hate the position. I'd go jungle except I'm probably the slowest at clearing, so my best lanes are honestly support, AD bot and AP mid.


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An Falchu

Member

06-18-2012

Having a discussion right now on viable top-lane champs and strats in regards to the 1vs2 scenario. I agree on the need for jungle even versus 2 to and no enemy jungle. Trying to craft some new ideas on how best to getterdone.

Chime in here! >> http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2235569


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bylobog44

Senior Member

06-18-2012

I don't want to minimize jungling, but it's just a strategy. It's a great strategy that is supported by solid theory, experience and works when the team communicates and works together. There are good reasons for current meta-game, but it relies on good teamwork. I figure it out at champion select. If 3 people insta-lock MF, Ashe and Caityn, if there is a pissing match over who mids, if your AP carry doesn't want mid, if you have no support, if you have a Karthus who builds 5 Sun Fire Capes (yes - I had one of those games), if half your team are raging idiots or Brazilians, if there is no team coordination you are probably better off laning (or maybe dodging).

If a dual top lane loses to a solo+Jungle, it's because they were stupid. They didn't ward, they over extended and when ganked they didn't focus the jungler and steal his buffs. If you free farmed both jungles they clearly didn't have even their own jungle or the river warded. They obviously didn't invade your jungle and gank you at level 1. When you lost top lane, did they use their numerical advantage to push mid or bot? They most likely over extended trying to take the top inner tower. They clearly had no idea of the jungle or dragon spawn/respawn timers or common jungle routes or times.

You played against scrubs, got fed and won.

I often try to jungle in Normal blind and usually end up spending more time in lane than in jungle. When I am 2v1 against a team with a jungle I :

  • Get my team to level 1 gank the enemy jungler. Even if he just blows his summoner's spells or has to B early, it really messes up his early game.
  • Ward the river, dragon and common gank approaches.
  • Ward my own jungle. Obviously 1 player can't buy all the wards, but I try to get my team to wards and lead by example.
  • Don't use the numerical advantage just to push the lane - use it to zone the enemy solo top and last hit to keep the minion wave from pushing.
  • As I have jungled enough to know what champs are capable of a level 3 gank and what champs really need Level 6, and approximately how long it takes them to get to those points, I have a good idea when it is safe to extend for a kill, and when I need to play it safe.
  • When the inevitable gank comes. Focus the jungler over the solo laner. If you steal red or blue buff, the solo top is now low HP and facing a buffed dual lane without jungle support.
  • Kill the jungler, THEN push the lane.
  • When you take the tower, don't just farm top or over extend. Either go take the jungle camps or go push another lane. This can be a jungler's nightmare. Most of the time, his whole team will be ragging on him for his failed gank while you pillage his jungle.