Is max CDR worth it?

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Dane Belthound

Senior Member

06-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by kavinh the third View Post
Yeah exactly how useful is it and is it worth whatever u buy/runes or masteries to get it.

Several of the easiest ways to get 40% CDR involve 9/21/0 on the mastery trees along with cdr/lvl blues giving u 20% at lvl 18 which only requires u to build 1 20% cdr item to easily obtain the 40%. and in exchange u lose 9ap/27ap at lvl 18 or around 15ish MR.

So exactly how useful is CDR in ur opinion is it actually worth the trouble to get it aside from a specific few champions or is it just playstyle base
It is totally champ dependent. Auto attackers don't need it. Someone like Blitz hugely benefits given his usefulness revolves around that arm and knock up.


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Etherimp

Senior Member

06-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by WowGgPrettyEzTho View Post
Getting to use your abilities twice as often doesn't mean anything if you do zero damage.


You're wrong on every level.

1. As mentioned above, any champion who has an awesome CC (Such as Amumu), benefits from CDR simply because they get their CC 40% faster, which means they are ready to initiate teamfights 40% faster. Their damage output has nothing to do with that.

2. Champions with a FLAT amount of damage on their ulti. Cho'gath, for example. Having this available 40% more often means they can deal that mega-burst, 40% more often.

3. Some champions, have very high BASE damage on their abilities, but not very good AP ratios.. Higher base damage favors CDR over AP.

4. Some champions benefit from using their abilities more often. Mordekaiser, for example, gets his Shield... Vlad steals life, and it makes his AOE damage spammable which allows him to keep 4 stacks on it. CDR for these "spell vamp" oriented champions is like Attack Speed for Life Steal oriented champions. More CDR = More survivability.

I've done tests with Morde comparing Deathcap (+Full build) to Morello's Evil Tome (+Full build) BEFORE the rework, and found that in any engagement lasting longer than 6 seconds, Morellos Evil Tome outperformed Deathcap every time. . . And this was BEFORE Morellos was reworked.


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corallein

Senior Member

06-15-2012

Why would you get Morello's over Deathfire Grasp on Mordekaiser?


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corallein

Senior Member

06-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etherimp View Post
You're wrong on every level.

1. As mentioned above, any champion who has an awesome CC (Such as Amumu), benefits from CDR simply because they get their CC 40% faster, which means they are ready to initiate teamfights 40% faster. Their damage output has nothing to do with that.

2. Champions with a FLAT amount of damage on their ulti. Cho'gath, for example. Having this available 40% more often means they can deal that mega-burst, 40% more often.
No, this is a fallacy.
Simply having 40% reduced cooldowns doesn't mean you use the ability 40% more often unless you're constantly casting it on cooldown and have no resource issues or lack of targets.

And those are incredibly stupid assumptions. Amumu is never going to be able to use ult more than once in a teamfight anyway. Bandage Toss is lackluster CC and also doesn't often get full use more than once in a team fight. CDR is NOT useful for Amumu.

CDR is useful for Cho'gath, but it has nothing to do with his ult. You'll never be nomming on cooldown when at max Feast stacks because you want to save it for priority targets. The usefulness of CDR on Cho'gath is simply because he has two shorter-cooldown AOE CCs - Rupture and Feral Scream - both of which can be incredibly disruptive in teamfights. But again, mindlessly stacking CDR is STILL stupid because Cho'gath also needs a lot of defensive stats to be able to live long enough to cast his abilities multiple times.

And that is the big kicker. CDR is ONLY useful if you're still alive when your abilities come off cooldown AND there's a useful target in range immediately. For tanky melee DPS, defensive stats are usually more important. For burst mages, the best way to stay alive is to kill the enemy in one combo. For ranged AD carries, damage from abilities takes backseat to auto-attack damage.

And in the early game, CDR is completely useless. Runes provide the most benefit early on, so there is zero reason to ever use CDR runes.


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Etherimp

Senior Member

06-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by corallein View Post
Why would you get Morello's over Deathfire Grasp on Mordekaiser?
This was before the rework, but at the time it was because Morellos gives more CDR and AP.


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Etherimp

Senior Member

06-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by corallein View Post
No, this is a fallacy.
Simply having 40% reduced cooldowns doesn't mean you use the ability 40% more often unless you're constantly casting it on cooldown and have no resource issues or lack of targets.

And those are incredibly stupid assumptions. Amumu is never going to be able to use ult more than once in a teamfight anyway. Bandage Toss is lackluster CC and also doesn't often get full use more than once in a team fight. CDR is NOT useful for Amumu.
CDR is NOT useful for Amumu? Seriously?

I never said Amumu could use his ulti more than once per teamfight, but that he will be able to initiate teamfights more often and have his ult for that teamfight. More CDR = More Ulti. Also, a shorter CD on Bandage Toss could mean the difference between nabbing someone who's attempting to escape, or allowing them to escape. To me, this makes CDR worth it on Amumu.


Quote:
CDR is useful for Cho'gath, but it has nothing to do with his ult. You'll never be nomming on cooldown when at max Feast stacks because you want to save it for priority targets. The usefulness of CDR on Cho'gath is simply because he has two shorter-cooldown AOE CCs - Rupture and Feral Scream - both of which can be incredibly disruptive in teamfights. But again, mindlessly stacking CDR is STILL stupid because Cho'gath also needs a lot of defensive stats to be able to live long enough to cast his abilities multiple times.

And that is the big kicker. CDR is ONLY useful if you're still alive when your abilities come off cooldown AND there's a useful target in range immediately. For tanky melee DPS, defensive stats are usually more important. For burst mages, the best way to stay alive is to kill the enemy in one combo. For ranged AD carries, damage from abilities takes backseat to auto-attack damage.

And in the early game, CDR is completely useless. Runes provide the most benefit early on, so there is zero reason to ever use CDR runes.
Cho'gath dies.. Needs feast stacks. Now he has to wait full duration of his Ulti to regain feast stacks. Assuming you died at 6 stacks, you need 3 ulti's up before you can get full stacks again. CDR reduces the time you'll be at less than maximum feast stacks.

Furthermore, there are defensive items such as Frozen Heart which are amazing on both Cho'gath AND Amumu with or without the CDR.

I don't think I ever stated that rushing CDR on either of this characters was priority over defensive items. I only stated that CDR is GOOD on them.

However, MAXING CDR IS good on other champions... Such as Mordekaiser, Vlad, Karma, Poppy, etc.


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MeltedWater

Senior Member

06-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by corallein View Post
No, this is a fallacy.
Simply having 40% reduced cooldowns doesn't mean you use the ability 40% more often unless you're constantly casting it on cooldown and have no resource issues or lack of targets.

And those are incredibly stupid assumptions. Amumu is never going to be able to use ult more than once in a teamfight anyway. Bandage Toss is lackluster CC and also doesn't often get full use more than once in a team fight. CDR is NOT useful for Amumu.

CDR is useful for Cho'gath, but it has nothing to do with his ult. You'll never be nomming on cooldown when at max Feast stacks because you want to save it for priority targets. The usefulness of CDR on Cho'gath is simply because he has two shorter-cooldown AOE CCs - Rupture and Feral Scream - both of which can be incredibly disruptive in teamfights. But again, mindlessly stacking CDR is STILL stupid because Cho'gath also needs a lot of defensive stats to be able to live long enough to cast his abilities multiple times.

And that is the big kicker. CDR is ONLY useful if you're still alive when your abilities come off cooldown AND there's a useful target in range immediately. For tanky melee DPS, defensive stats are usually more important. For burst mages, the best way to stay alive is to kill the enemy in one combo. For ranged AD carries, damage from abilities takes backseat to auto-attack damage.

And in the early game, CDR is completely useless. Runes provide the most benefit early on, so there is zero reason to ever use CDR runes.
It sounds to me like you're saying CDR is useless. That's most certainly not true.

First of all, on a tank like Cho'Gath or Alsitar that wants to spam CC as much as they can, there are a few things you need to understand. They WILL live until the end of the fight. They WILL get to use their skills until every enemy or ally is dead or escaped. And they WILL build a Frozen Heart (preferably early on), which gives 20% CDR by itself. There are also plenty other viable options depending on if they want to build support or pure tank; resist, armor, or HP; and if they want AP, mana, or mana regen. Such options include Athene's Unholy Grail, Randuin's Omen, Shurelya's Reverie, Soul Shroud, Zeke's Herald, Morello's Evil Tome, and Spirit Visage. It's not hard to get 40% or even more without trying.

However.

That's not to say CDR is useless early game. That is oh so wrong. With more CDR, tanks/supports can harass/sustain more, so long as they have the mana regen to do so. I don't personally use CDR runes and masteries, because of the large variety of items that give the stat, but I can see if somoene wants to use them. There's nothing wrong with it.

Also, CDR is very important for people such as Kayle, Fiddlesticks, and Nunu who can keep an ability up at all times if they have enough CDR. No matter how long a fight lasts, they never have to worry about waiting for cooldowns.


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Qeuscis

Senior Member

06-15-2012

I find that once you buy a void staff, you should sell Sorcerer's Shoes and buy Lucidity boots. This is primarily because flat penetration has its value decreased as there is more %Penetration.
Assuming 150MR target:
150-(30 flat) = 120 * (1-.46)= 65 Effective MR
vs.
150-(10 flat)= 140 * .54 = 76 Effective MR

That is only loss of 11 Mpen. In exchange, you get reliable CDR that allows for more significantly higher damage and utility, if you have the surviveability to use it. With blue buff and the mastery, 39% CDR can be reached.


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Thané

Senior Member

06-25-2012

Of course cdr is useful. Im not sure why people are arguing so much about it.

Just depends who you are playing. Anyone who mainly usues auto attacks, not really important. Any that uses casts as a main source of damage, pretty important.

More casts = more kills and escapes from sticky situations.

Just dont go out of your way to prioritize it unless you are making use of all the other stats on the item.


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