HP Items

First Riot Post
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VoidInsanity

Senior Member

06-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infirc View Post
an Item that raised 2% cd for evrey 100 points of Ap would be useful then.
No, because at most you'd be getting 8% cdr from it after going full out ap. The problem is AP champions cannot go full out AP without dying instantly to an AD champion that only needs 1 damage item and 1 lifesteal item to take you out. For the CDR from AP to be useful it'd have to be high enough so that champions could constantly spam their spells
, but that would imbalance champions that can go AP or AD such as Ezreal and Jax further.

The reason casters go tanky is because they die instantly if they do not, having tons of AP is not viable if you cannot use it. Spellvamp is not viable in dominion compared to lifesteal, because lifesteal is a constant. Even champions that are based around spellvamp in SR such as Mordekaiser are better off skipping it early because of how worthless it is in an actual fight with someone. Compare this to vayne who can run away, get full hp from attacking 2-3 minions or become full hp in a fight again the second she isn't focused, have a "second hp bar" in a fight by using her E when she is low enough and you start to see why casters are so weak. This is also the reason why you don't see AP poppy, only AD.


To this end, IMO if casters were to get any bonus from AP it needs to be flat spell pen (to force AD deathtanks to itemise more than 100-120mr) or Spellvamp (so the sustain can be matched). Personally I'd pick spellvamp since it doesn't directly make champions stronger, but it would make spellcasters that do go for AP less likely to die if they can land their spells. Risk <--> Reward.

Other things that could help is more special dominion items that add effects to caster spells like what Hextech Sweeper does. A item that adds a blind to your spells for 1 attack? An item that when activated resets your last non ultimate spell used? An item like Sheen/trinity/lich bane but procs on the spells instead of on attacks. Etc, etc.


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Blazingswordsman

Senior Member

06-14-2012

See I don't want health items because I think tanks dominate dominion too hard, and who builds health items? The tanky bros. As far as I can see its an issue because beyond a handful of AD carries, they get completely crushed on Dominion, while in SR he constant damage from your carry drops the frontline meatshields. Ezreal, Vayne, Kog'maw, they all work because they have really good escapes or range, but say Ashe, Caitlyn, Corki, MF are screwed. The problem with APs is that they can't burst anyone down because all the popular picks are too tanky, so they go through their combo without severely impacting the fight and then are useless, but if ADs and supports were more viable/popular then I think they would have purpose to kill high damage, weak defense targets like how AD ranged build on SR and APs build. So ultimately I think that if ADs are actually viable then the other roles fall into a better balance, at least a little bit. Currently its like playing rock, paper, scissors without paper.

So how do you balance AD carries in the small skirmishes that dominate dominion while they are balanced really around 5v5 teamfights in SR. It may be dramatic, but I always wanted to give them an additional escape mechanism on Dominion through an item, something similar to shadow blade but toned down for LoL(1 or 2 seconds of stealth). This will give them a chance to get away from the big bruiser that pounces on them and counter-attack. The stats should reflect that it is an AD item, so AS and crit since bruisers don't find those stats useful. Ideally it would be built out of stinger since I think it needs more build options, but this is merely my own preference.


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Phourc

Senior Member

06-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blazingswordsman View Post
Ezreal, Vayne, Kog'maw, they all work because they have really good escapes or range, but say Ashe, Caitlyn, Corki, MF are screwed.
I get your point but I disagree with your groupings, Corki has strong harass with his ult and a good range blink, Caitlyn's got range and a semidecent escape - both belong in the first group, while Kog belongs in the second group. The only reason Kog's still a popular pick on Dominion is his passive can usually clean up after a duel or teamfight that goes poorly.


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Volandum

Senior Member

06-14-2012

I don't feel APs are as weak as people say they are, because while you're not going to down people in one combo unless you're Leblanc, say (who is quite capable of doing it on Dominion), you will be doing a lot of area of effect damage, and a lot of the team compositions benefit a lot from area of effect magic damage.


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Les Nomerables

Game Designer

06-14-2012
5 of 6 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volandum View Post
I don't feel APs are as weak as people say they are, because while you're not going to down people in one combo unless you're Leblanc, say (who is quite capable of doing it on Dominion), you will be doing a lot of area of effect damage, and a lot of the team compositions benefit a lot from area of effect magic damage.
It's not that they're truly weak, but rather that they're so dependent on the multiplicative properties of Rabadon's Deathcap. I think AD have a similar problem with Infinity Edge to a lesser extent; both items are huge investments and gold sinks that leave you with no defensive stats and a hole in your inventory for the duration you're saving. And while the Prospector's items are good, the lack of Doran's stacking probably hurts AP and AD disproportionately.


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Rebonack

Senior Member

06-14-2012

It may seem like an odd idea but...

What about simply adding an aura that multiplies the AP that champions purchase akin to the auras that give free percentile pen?

That seems like it would be the simplest solution to the AP scaling issues. It would be a much more elegant solution that re-working a whole bunch of existing AP items to make them more valuable on Scar.

This would have relatively little impact on the champions that are already amazing (Kass builds little AP, same with Lulu) and it would be a huge boon to the rest of the AP cast whilst doing little to change bullies like Urgot, Wolfy, Panth, Wukong, and Yorick.

Just to add to that a bit...

This would be in place of the current percentile magic pen aura the map provides. A similar aura could be used to grant bonus Crit Damage in place of the current percentile armor pen aura. The problem with the penetration auras is that it favors already tanky champions to build a little offense and then beef it up to take advantage of the free penetration and their high base values. But shifting the free stats to AP and Crit Damage you would be favoring champions that are at a disadvantage and away from those that tend to dominate Dominion.


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zionist shill

Senior Member

06-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
It's not that they're truly weak, but rather that they're so dependent on the multiplicative properties of Rabadon's Deathcap. I think AD have a similar problem with Infinity Edge to a lesser extent; both items are huge investments and gold sinks that leave you with no defensive stats and a hole in your inventory for the duration you're saving. And while the Prospector's items are good, the lack of Doran's stacking probably hurts AP and AD disproportionately.
Also no blue buff doesn't really help mages either.


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VoidInsanity

Senior Member

06-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
It's not that they're truly weak, but rather that they're so dependent on the multiplicative properties of Rabadon's Deathcap.
If you truly believe that is the issue, then why not remove the deathcap and add a % ap scaling to the aura?


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Nirosu

Senior Member

06-14-2012

Im glad to see things being worked on for dominion. For me personally I feel that there just isn't enough options in terms of items. Someone mentioned phage and how it does upgrade into 3 things, entropy just isn't all that great maybe if the active was changed to a passive with a % to trigger or the damage was scaled down and applied with every hit.
Another example is that there is only two HP+AS items, ionic spark and trinity force. Trinity force, most definitely has its uses on a lot of champions but ionic spark is very meh at best, having it be like wit's end and such while an interesting idea, the way it was done is not and drags it down.

Now in regards to just defensive / health items I have to agree with OP in that dominion is lacking but I also agree with RiotNome in that fighter types are often the top tier champions. The bigger question is do the players and Riot want dominion to be where burst reigns supreme and fights last like 5 seconds or where tanky regen reigns supreme and fights last a minute. Right now I think full on fights are to short but that poke fights are too long.
The tanky items might make people more inclined to full on engage in a fight as they are less worried about dying in 5 seconds.


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Aroyok

Senior Member

06-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nirosu View Post
Another example is that there is only two HP+AS items, ionic spark and trinity force. Trinity force, most definitely has its uses on a lot of champions but ionic spark is very meh at best, having it be like wit's end and such while an interesting idea, the way it was done is not and drags it down.
Enter Stark's Fervor. It also gives CDR.