HP Items

First Riot Post
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Phourc

Senior Member

06-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orphane View Post
It ain't high elo until you see at least 9/10 Frozen Hearts in a game.
Oh god, so true...


Nome is posting in the Dom forum and I missed it?!? HI NOME!!!

Going to agree with a couple of the above posters, there's just a few items that are so ****ed good they outshine everything else. For example, no AD caster is going to go far from brutalizer, Maw, Frozen Heart, Last Whisper, or a bruiser from Triforce, Frozen heart, Odyn's - mix n match a few other of the ridiculously good items, sure, but a good chunk of the items here just don't do much for this mode (*cough* RoA *cough*).

I'd love to see a cheaper version of Deathcap, it really does feel like casters don't become relevant until after they build it, yet risk a lot to build pure AP with no health/cdr/resists - I could see that doing a lot for casters' relevance.


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Stiff Tacos

Senior Member

06-14-2012

Haha, I love how I started this thread whining about HP items, and it became something entirely different when I wake up in the morning. Oh well, no regrets, I did draw some Reds in.

Anyways, my take on it is that there should be some readjusting.

In SR, the straight up tanks aren't the ones who usually get lots of CS. Therefore, they rely on GP10 items to slowly raise funds for their big tanky buys. In Dominion, where everyone has innate gold gain, it is much too easy to buy all of those glorious defensive items.

This also changes the champion meta too. AD carries in SR must farm like madmen to "carry" the team in the late game with their crazy DPS. In Dominion, everyone ends up with about the same amount of gold, so the squishy AD carries feel weaker in comparison.

However, AD casters feel much stronger. Their abilities do crazy damage from building straight AD and some ArPen; they don't have to worry about itemizing for AS, crit, or lifesteal. They have extra room to build defensive items too.

AP casters feel weak as well. As stated before (by someone, I forget), they generally must roam, gank, and kill to afford their hugely priced AP items. This isn't possible to nearly the same extent in Dominion, so they fall off quickly into late game.

How to improve it? I don't really know for sure. Important item changes have happened in the past (Banshee's to Odyn's, Doran's to Prospecter's), and they are appreciated, but it would discourage SR players to come to Dominion if there were numerous new items or if champion balance was changed specifically for Dominion. In my opinion, the easiest way is to make certain prices cheaper or more expensive. Or, alternatively, make gold gain less uniform. Of course we want to avoid excessive snowballing, but some champions' core gameplay mechanics rely on getting ahead early and staying ahead. Perhaps we can make sure that an entire team doesn't get much stronger than the entire other team, but adjsut the distribution of gold changes for the players on the same team (this could be done by awarding gold for damage dealt, increasing CS gold, increasing kill/assist gold, etc). To avoid snowballing, rubberbanding could be implemented to increase gold gain slightly for the team that has less total gold.

There are some problems that probably can't be helped. Some champs like Veigar will never reach their full potential because the game ends to quickly and there aren't enough minions for him to make his Q powerful. Champions that use fury find it hard to sustain it. Unless their skills are adjusted or core Dominion gameplay is changed significantly, I feel that these champions will be under powered in Dominion if they are balanced in SR.

Of course, this is from a relatively inexperienced player (I just recently hit level 30). However, I'm sure the Devs could use thoughts and observations from players with average Elo, considering that's where the majority of the players are.

Please, let me know where I am wrong.


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Infirc

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Senior Member

06-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChronicleX View Post
while raising the CDR cap is nice in theory, it'll not do much since mages would have to find some way to get even higher cdr without loosing any stats they need, and the mana required to sustain it. It's just not a solution and would just proceed to make tanky casters that can abuse Tears of the Godess such as Yorrick, Urgot and Ryze even worse than they are now. The solution needs to be something that effects AP casters only and energy/rage users, otherwise we are going to see alot of ghostblade/brutilizer CDR boot AD's destroy everything. So to that end the Crystal Scar aura needs to be adjusted, say a flat AP % boost or a % of your current AP is added as flat magic pen or spellvamp. Stuff like that. It must not effect AD's or tanks at all.
an Item that raised 2% cd for evrey 100 points of Ap would be useful then.


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Risemix

Senior Member

06-14-2012

What might be nice is like said above, some kind of atma's-type item for casters. Health->CDR/AP (a small amount, we don't want old atma's all over again on casters lol).


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Snoop Nome

Game Designer

06-14-2012
4 of 6 Riot Posts

Interesting ideas guys
I will say that some of the suggestions posted here mirror the same conclusions I came to, so it's good that we're colluding on thoughts. As I mentioned to the Proving Grounds crowd in the PBE forums, I'll be transferring to live team in short notice to provide support for non-SR maps. Keep the suggestions rolling in (this thread and others) and I'll comment and take note when possible.


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FOODFOOD

Senior Member

06-14-2012

It's such a nice feeling having someone from Riot really noticeably care about this. It may actually bring me back to playing LoL more frequently after a pretty big hiatus


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IIxeenoxII

Senior Member

06-14-2012

I was thinking; would it be possible to adjust the storm shield so that it affects the entire team, maybe where it adds a shield that scales with how much max hp you have.( For example: +30% of 1800 = 2,340 scales down to say 15% for 3k hp). The lightning passive would only go to the one picking up the storm shield. Just thinking out loud, could be a terrible idea, for all I know :/

I think this would make it much more useful and game changing like Baron is to SR.


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Zelgadis

Senior Member

06-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
I understand that defensive properties are valued heavily on Dominion. I'm asking if it has a positive impact on game health though. For example, my understanding of the Dominion tier list is that tanks and fighters reign at the top (Wukong, Rammus, Alistar, Yorick, Urgot), with a few exceptions (Janna, Kassadin). From a game design perspective, if tanky/mobile champions are precluding the viability of non-tanky/mobile champions, then items that boost these properties should inherently be limited to promote balance and variability.

That leads me back to my original question, which is whether high-end defensive items like Warmog's or Frozen Mallet are conducive to healthy gameplay.
Is a discussion like this one going on even for Summoner's Rift? I ask because, even there, tanky builds are pretty much the standard. Going glass cannon is not viable since forever, while stacking defenses is quite profitable. Thoughts?


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Stexe

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Adjudicator

06-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotNome View Post
So a question I'd like to ask here is whether high-end defensive items are conducive to healthy gameplay on Dominion. Variety is an issue we can still solve.
Agreed, but not only high-end but also low end. There was originally going to be a defensive Prospector item, but that never came through. Similarly with the MR defensive Doran item that was never made.

Outside of creating a Dominion version of Warmog, I'm not sure there really needs to be a heavy life item as Rylai, Rod, Frozen Heart, Sunfire, etc fill those roles fairly well.

There are much more important issues that Dominion needs to address as a general overhaul.


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Phourc

Senior Member

06-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zelgadis View Post
Is a discussion like this one going on even for Summoner's Rift? I ask because, even there, tanky builds are pretty much the standard. Going glass cannon is not viable since forever, while stacking defenses is quite profitable. Thoughts?
Dunno man, carries do a sweet bit of four-way hyperscaling (AD, AS, Crit and Pen), with each stat increasing each other stat's contribution to your damage output. A carry that wants to stay relevant damage-wise is going to be hard pressed to build anything OTHER than an Infinity Edge, Bloodthirster or Phantom Dancer before picking up maybe a single defense item. (I don't watch competitive SR matches, but my friends who do say ranged carries go almost directly for an IE)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stexe View Post
Outside of creating a Dominion version of Warmog, I'm not sure there really needs to be a heavy life item as Rylai, Rod, Frozen Heart, Sunfire, etc fill those roles fairly well.
Only a few of those items are actually good, RoA needs to be rushed to be useful, and usually puts you back too far to be worth it (I've yet to see a high level player who says RoA is worth it over sitting on a catalyst and building something else), sunfire is okay on paper but usually doesn't bring enough damage to justify the cost. To me, your large health item choices feel like pretty much Rylai or Frozen Mallet - I'd love it if bruisers had other options than to permaslow me xP