Let's Have a General Discussion About Dominion

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djump

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06-13-2012

Get ready for a long post....I'd love to hear replies from those of you that do read it though.

First of all, I love this thread. I don't notice threads very often with a consistently thoughtful and productive line of discussion.

So as far as dominion goes, I like it a lot. I'm probly play about 60/30/10% SR/Dominion/Other. When I play dominion, sometimes it's just to try out or practice a champ more quickly, sometimes it's just cus I don't have time for a SR game and the rest of the time is actually for enjoyment of the gameplay and strategy of dominion. For me, summoner rift can be more fun in longer term strategy (as opposed to moment by moment strategy that I think is more previlant in dominion). Summoners Rift consists of always working on farm over time, keeping map objectives in mind for when you or the other team will be able to get them, thinking of yours and the other team comps and who will be strong now/later and who you should help/focus on at different points. All of this I feel is a more long-term style of thinking. Obviously, there is still the moment by moment skills of winning lanes, taking gank opportunities and looking for objective openings, but dominion relies on that type of thinking a lot more. You have to see where the other team is/is going and make quick strategy choices on what capture points to go for or defend. It feels much more reactionary on where your team and their team is at the moment and what defensive or offensive action needs suddenly arise.

I think item builds/order matter more in SR as it happens more slowly and there is more chance to capatalize on even small item advantages over you opponent, and there is more skill/effort involved with getting gold in the first place. In dominion, of course item builds matter, but I don't get that same make or break feel of how quickly I can get certain items or what order I chose to build in. Item builds, as long as they are at least reasonably suited to your char and the opposing team, aren't as game changing as things like your positioning strategy as a team and how you react to enemy movement.

In this sense I feel like dominion and SR each have their own merit and draw. Overall I think most people would agree that there is a little more depth of strategy and gameplay in SR, but still I think dominion has a reasonable, although different, depth. I agree with others that there is more to dominion than people give it credit for:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishsong214 View Post
There's a lot more depth to Dominion than people give it credit. Knowing when to just harass an opponent at a point, map awareness of where the enemy is so that you can potentially leave one of your points to fall so that you can take one of their's.

What I would like to see would be a somewhat established meta; I feel that that would bring more people in. At the moment, especially since no one plays Draft, teams can often be very poorly constructed. Beating a team because they all chose AD characters just feels wrong.
The best that I can figure out is having a tank, a squishy ap, a squishy ad, and two tanky characters (although not full tank), preferably one ad and one ap.
I'm sure it depends on your dominion elo (I hover around a 0.95-1.0 w/l ratio) but I see a lot of people adopting the superficial hack-and-slash-engage-now style of play, not giving as much thought to strategy of team positioning / teamwork. This is fine and can be fun in it's own right, but I think there definitely is a lot of dominion specific meta and team strategy that is underdeveloped as far as I can tell. Maybe it exists, and I'm just not aware of it, so if so please direct me to some good threads/guides/reference sites/or streams that talk about higher level dominion play. I would love to see a more well known/followed set of meta strategies that encouraged greater depth of game play in dominion.

I think this ties in to the lack of ranked mode in dominion too. I think a ranked option would provide a great and needed division between a more carefree/fun or testing style of dominion play and a more serious/focused/competitive approach. Having a more serious play mode would be a huge step in allowing further development and community establishment/acceptance of dominion meta/strategy standards.

I'm sure riot has their reasons for not doing ranked dominion yet. Maybe it's as simple as them not having the startup resources to devote to it ATM (although in my naive view it seems like it would be simple to add as they already have ranked framework in 2 other game types). Or maybe they think the queue wait times would just be too long (they already can tend to be a bit lengthy on occasion). But I would definitely love to see what would happen with dominion if ranked was added.

As far as balance issues that people talk about, I agree with this guy:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krimson62 View Post
I think Dominion has better balance than SR and more flexibility.

Sure jax is OP, but he's OP on SR too.
Rammus and malphite are impossible to kill many people say, but with wits end, and kitaes, they still start to melt pretty fast. (or a decent mage)

As a team comp you need 3 things (unlike the 5 in SR)

Magic Damage
Physical Damage
A tank

With those 3 things you can play competitively and do well.

Champions who are deemed subpar, like Eve, Hecarim, and Fiora are all great picks on dominion. There is no "Bad" champ for it.
I don't think dominion is very unbalanced. It could be that my elo is just in a place where people don't play competitively enough, but one thing i've loved about dominion is how many fun and different chars/builds can be viable. In dominion you of course need to be able to fight the other team well and work with your own teams, but at the end of the day, any char with any build can still capture a point, and how you're able to position and move as a team only depends a little on the champs/builds. I really enjoy the fact that you can try out things that would be far from viable in SR but they can work ok in dominion.

any thoughts or replies to this?


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djump

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06-13-2012

Omg! The thread got moved to dominion!


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ActionButlerGO

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06-13-2012

Thanks, Tamat. Wouldn't want another legitimate discussion taking up space GD that could be filled with another "Your Last Played Champ..." thread.


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Pemmin

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06-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redenbacher View Post
Are you suggesting... revolution? Perhaps if we post lots of Dominion threads like the plethora of SR threads, Dominion will then become considered 'general' discussion?


Or, we can post in every non-general discussion thread on GD, "Please move this thread to the SR subforum." Or Champion feedback, or what have you.

Not a revolution yet, more of a quasi-peaceful protest.


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GET REKT FGT

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06-13-2012

thread has been moved to Dominion...>.>


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TheFrenchTickler

Member

06-13-2012

Is this more of a sign we should take this **** offsite in general? Be nice to have a dominion focused community with no thread burying, even if it comes at a lower audience at first. Still think a dominion section for solomid.net would be hella sexy too. Makes me sad to see THIS of all threads moved. General discussion should be for everyone.

Dominatedominion.com

P.s. I need to give more lovin therein to that site as well


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Volandum

Senior Member

06-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by djump View Post
Get ready for a long post....I'd love to hear replies from those of you that do read it though.

First of all, I love this thread. I don't notice threads very often with a consistently thoughtful and productive line of discussion.

So as far as dominion goes, I like it a lot. I'm probly play about 60/30/10% SR/Dominion/Other. When I play dominion, sometimes it's just to try out or practice a champ more quickly, sometimes it's just cus I don't have time for a SR game and the rest of the time is actually for enjoyment of the gameplay and strategy of dominion. For me, summoner rift can be more fun in longer term strategy (as opposed to moment by moment strategy that I think is more previlant in dominion). Summoners Rift consists of always working on farm over time, keeping map objectives in mind for when you or the other team will be able to get them, thinking of yours and the other team comps and who will be strong now/later and who you should help/focus on at different points. All of this I feel is a more long-term style of thinking. Obviously, there is still the moment by moment skills of winning lanes, taking gank opportunities and looking for objective openings, but dominion relies on that type of thinking a lot more. You have to see where the other team is/is going and make quick strategy choices on what capture points to go for or defend. It feels much more reactionary on where your team and their team is at the moment and what defensive or offensive action needs suddenly arise.

I think item builds/order matter more in SR as it happens more slowly and there is more chance to capatalize on even small item advantages over you opponent, and there is more skill/effort involved with getting gold in the first place. In dominion, of course item builds matter, but I don't get that same make or break feel of how quickly I can get certain items or what order I chose to build in. Item builds, as long as they are at least reasonably suited to your char and the opposing team, aren't as game changing as things like your positioning strategy as a team and how you react to enemy movement.

In this sense I feel like dominion and SR each have their own merit and draw. Overall I think most people would agree that there is a little more depth of strategy and gameplay in SR, but still I think dominion has a reasonable, although different, depth. I agree with others that there is more to dominion than people give it credit for:



I'm sure it depends on your dominion elo (I hover around a 0.95-1.0 w/l ratio) but I see a lot of people adopting the superficial hack-and-slash-engage-now style of play, not giving as much thought to strategy of team positioning / teamwork. This is fine and can be fun in it's own right, but I think there definitely is a lot of dominion specific meta and team strategy that is underdeveloped as far as I can tell. Maybe it exists, and I'm just not aware of it, so if so please direct me to some good threads/guides/reference sites/or streams that talk about higher level dominion play. I would love to see a more well known/followed set of meta strategies that encouraged greater depth of game play in dominion.

I think this ties in to the lack of ranked mode in dominion too. I think a ranked option would provide a great and needed division between a more carefree/fun or testing style of dominion play and a more serious/focused/competitive approach. Having a more serious play mode would be a huge step in allowing further development and community establishment/acceptance of dominion meta/strategy standards.

I'm sure riot has their reasons for not doing ranked dominion yet. Maybe it's as simple as them not having the startup resources to devote to it ATM (although in my naive view it seems like it would be simple to add as they already have ranked framework in 2 other game types). Or maybe they think the queue wait times would just be too long (they already can tend to be a bit lengthy on occasion). But I would definitely love to see what would happen with dominion if ranked was added.

As far as balance issues that people talk about, I agree with this guy:



I don't think dominion is very unbalanced. It could be that my elo is just in a place where people don't play competitively enough, but one thing i've loved about dominion is how many fun and different chars/builds can be viable. In dominion you of course need to be able to fight the other team well and work with your own teams, but at the end of the day, any char with any build can still capture a point, and how you're able to position and move as a team only depends a little on the champs/builds. I really enjoy the fact that you can try out things that would be far from viable in SR but they can work ok in dominion.

any thoughts or replies to this?
I thought your post deserved a replay, so I'll see what I can say. Map objectives and team composition are still crucial in dominion, a lot of teams have trouble because they're too late game, with champs like Jax and Kog'Maw, and don't take enough early game strength in champs like Heimerdinger and Pantheon. Similarly a lot of teams make the mistake of falling off too hard.

You characterise Dominion as reactionary. This is fair enough, and emphasises the importance of information. Most of the map is jungle, and it's important to know as much about this (by actually controlling it and zoning your opponents, having it shroomed, whatever) as possible, and deny your opponents knowledge by hiding it in as a group.

Item builds in dominion are pretty key, they make or break fights, small ones particularly. Because often there are many more teamfights in smallish areas auras in particular make a huge difference. Someone gets an aegis or a frozen heart, that really changes what happens. These are not cheap items, but they're still 20-25% of the end game build that champs finish a game with.

What is true is that builds are more flexible. It's not that there's nothing to it. Here's an example: for mages, magic penetration is a key stat. At the start of the game, I need to decide whether I want to go for flat magic penetration (sorc shoes, haunting guise, maybe an abyssal) or get void staff fast. So I need to anticipate what they will build, and if it turns out I mispredicted and they got too much MR I have to change (so in particular you need to react to builds as well). Then of course I need to decide whether I want tenacity, which would have to come from a Miracle (underrated item in my opinion, 20 mp5 is 2/3 of what you get off a mana potion when it's running) or Moonflair.

For threads, try : http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=1949008 and http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...php?p=17877990 . There are also many threads about streams and tournaments in the Dominion forum.