Lee Sin, can't "see" how to play him right?

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Amarus

Junior Member

06-06-2012

Greetings summuners!

I've recently got Lee Sin the Blind Monk, which i'm really impressed with his gameplay, i simply love his way to dash on everything :P (Still a bit hard to get that small Q hit box right though)

I play him in the jungle, with this no problem, i'm already good in this position with jungler like nautilus, riven, amumu, etc.

The thing which I have a problem is.... the team fights/ganks.

I'll explain myself:

I always die. Even if I lauch my Q right and jump on someone (even during a gank) he/they just focus me so hard that i die instantly. Because of this, my team lose their lane due to the other jungler or 2vs1 top. Its getting worse at the point that i can't do my jungle and have to roam to each lane,can't have kill or minions. => underfed with almost no items.

I'm so squishy, but every lee sin that I have saw were tanky enough (or seemed to be) plus could deal great damage. So i'm wondering... what do I do wrong? Is it my gameplay? I know i need to practice him more, but I feel that some tips from the community always helped me from the past (I asked about Nautilus and Riven by the past, which result in an significant improvement ans I'm grateful for that).

My Build:

Masteries : 21/9/0

Brute force 3 Butcher 2
Alacrity 4
Deadliness 4 Weapon Expertise 1
Lethality 1 Vampirism 2
Sunder 3
Executioner 1

Everyting else in MR, Armor and health per lvl

Runes: (same as my riven)

3 Quint of armor pen
AD marks
Armor Seals
MRplvl Glyphs

Finally the items i try to get:

Start with cloth 5
upgrade in madred razor
Boots of speed
1-Upgrade Wriggles
2-Upgrade in Mercury's Tread
3-Warmogs
4-BT
5-Frozen Mallet
6th is situationnal.

Any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks everyone!


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HarmlessCareBear

Senior Member

06-06-2012

Missing Atma's Impaler in your items, or at least that's what I'd get whenever I have warmogs.


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Wonder Wafflez

Recruiter

06-06-2012

Hmm, you just may be overextending yourself. Lee sin shouldn't be that squishy early game with his shield + lifesteal he gets from it. Unless you're turret diving or getting 3v2'd early game, or the teammate who you were ganking for just left you. You shouldn't die that easily. If you get focus'd...well you get focus'd can't really do much about that besides flash/ward hopping using your shield.

When it comes to early game as a jungler, especially lee sin, you should be able to gank 1v2 all the time, in the case that their jungler is there and you don't have a clear advantage, then just back off and wait till you can get that 2v1. That's the thing with being a jungler, you have to analyze what the situation is and what your limitations are before you gank, or you could go headstrong and die. Usually as Lee Sin, I try to go grab their red (if they have a jungler that starts at blue), then immediately gank mid because in most cases, you'll force them to use their flash, meaning now you can go get lvl 3 in jungle and then gank mid with them having no escape mechanics besides what's build into their champion. Things like that, knowing what they have used, what hp their at, where you last saw their jungler, that determines whether or not you should gank. Just think every situation out before you engage. Hope this helps.


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xCry0x

Senior Member

06-06-2012

I feel you, I have not played lee sin in a few months and just had a horrible game with him. I got a few sloppy ganks but when team fighting started I got murdered. Entire team focused me and our team did not have high enough damage with an ashe and morg as as our ad and ap carry to capitalize on them attacking me.

I have never really had a strong transition from jungle to team fights as lee, but I think it is because I generally play ad bot and am used to a different play style where I do lots of damage and get lots of kills vs throwing my weight around as a bruiser and knocking around carries.


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StrmCkr

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Senior Member

06-07-2012

Quote:
I always die. Even if I lauch my Q right and jump on someone (even during a gank) he/they just focus me so hard that i die instantly
dont lead in with a Q instead safeguard onto targets {wards creeps allies} activate Cripple to slow their dps down:
Q the deisred target and R them and Q to safety. {or just R then q them as they fly backwards unable to react}

that is the key to engaging with lee for team fights, lee is designed for a 1 v 1 fight not a straight up 1 on5

regardless of items and builds a focused player 1 v 5 will die instantly

-- lee can also cast spells while midair. somethign i call "stack casting"

i have wrote about it in several post on how to play lee sin in these forums further details on it your goign to have to search for jungle lee help, how to play lee or search for my name.


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FatTurtle

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Senior Member

06-07-2012

dont try to play based on gimmicks such as always initiating with q. In fact you should almost never q from a bush .

Lee needs a really good angle to get powerful ganks, lead in with tempest slow, kick them back and q only when you can't reach them.


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Amarus

Junior Member

06-09-2012

Thanks for all the tips, i tried to practice the wall jumping with a ward, so i smartcast my first item slot with T then use W, just need some time to do it quicker and without pressing W to quickly xD.

tiny question: Should i get warmog first for the heal, or go with atma for the defense ? (then get warmog) as i usualy get these two item avec wriggles and boots lvl2.


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SavageWolves

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Senior Member

06-09-2012

As a major Lee Sin player myself (most played champion in ranked, 69% win rate ATM), I have experienced problems in the past as you have described. When mid game rolls around, I always seemed to get destroyed in the mid game skirmishes and 3 v 3 or so dragon fights.

So I'll tell you how I have learned to play Lee to still do damage and be able to survive.

I run 9/21/0 masteries, and my rune page is different than yours.

I run:
3 Flat AD quints
6 x Apen marks (+10 pen)
3 x Flat AD marks (total bonus AD 9.2 from runes)
Armor yellow (+13 armor)
MR/lvl blue (+24 MR @ level 18)

Flat AD quints are better than Apen quints, as the Apen quint adds 3.33 pen while two Apen reds add 1.7 Apen (2 Apen red > 1 Apen quint) and one AD quint is 2.25 AD vs 0.95 AD from an AD red (1 AD quint > 2 AD red).

Hence, I have more damage and armor pen than you from my runes, and the same tank.

I build boots + 3 pots initially.
Follow with wriggles and 1 or 2 doran's blades (Note dorans can be bought before wriggles is done).
Heart of gold also possible.
Your midgame tankiness item of awesomeness is Aegis of the Legion. This item will let you survive the mid game fights and be very tanky.

Tactics wise, I dislike playing lee when my top lane cannot initiate. When Lee can W onto the initiating champ and drop his slow, it is far stronger than when he has to go in first and alone.

Particularly, I don't like playing lee when top lane picks teemo.

-Savage


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StrmCkr

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Senior Member

06-09-2012

Quote:
tiny question: Should i get warmog first for the heal, or go with atma for the defense ? (then get warmog) as i usualy get these two item avec wriggles and boots lvl2.
technically build order should reflect how you are doing in game: if they are doing heavy damage build the chain mail for atama's

if they are casting spells periodically for poking damage chose higher health items and Regen {parts of warmogs}

if your doing well, keep the advantage by ramping up lee's damage to maintain pressure then build defensively for the mid- late game.

personally i don't like playing lee as a "true" tanky dps,

below is a copy paste from other threads: {idea's build options for lee}

lee sin: is one of the hardest champ in the game to be excptionally good with, this being said lee is considered god teir jungler by many.

i do recommend hundreds of games to get familiar/ proficient with using his tool set.

Lee Sin doesn't actually "carry" a team on his own, this is a common misconception when playing lee:

Lee is a counter-reactive champ that plays positionally, without wards, team mates or objects to safeguard onto lee has limited mobility for juking/kiting. These are what make lee a strong carry, by using his team he creates plays that can lead to a victory.

get used to spacing out abilities to maximize his energy regen & life-steal/spell vamp from auto attacks
E(1-2) -> E(1-2) -> W (1-2) -> W(1-2) -> Q(1-2) -> Q(1-2) ->> repeat

Practice landing his Q for effective ganks.
Practice Ward hoping and firing skill shots.
Practice W or QQ'ing & flashing behind target via minions/wards to set up a E-E -> R
Pactice combo burst's & escape - QERQW

advanced:
lee can do something i like to call stack casting: casting abilities within animations of 1 skill before it resolves, so that more then one casts seeming at the same time.

examples to change direction:

Q a target, activate Q to dash at target mid air cast W onto a new target.
timed well you hit target and jump back just after impact. {rapid key pressing can result in the appearance that only W cast but they take damage from Q}
time poorly you don't hit with second Q and leep to W target instead.
{notes is possible to accomplish this with R}

the timed poorly part is the interesting notation: this allows you a get out of jail free.
if you see aoe flying in your on-coming direction.

mid air devastation:
QQ - actvate ERW while flying at target. {a interesting way to avoid aoe silences}

there is alot more then this to learn with lee sin: before i go into more details on it here is my typical setup.

lee sin in the jungle.
3 Flat AD Quins
3 flat AD marks
6 flat armour pen marks
9 Flat armour seals
9 flat magic resitance glyphs

21|9|0 mastery
use this set up.
http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-le...-0-0-0-0-0&v=2

summoner spells: Smite & Flash

Skill Order: {Safer longer higher sustain jungle paths}
E -> W -> W -> Q -> Q -> R : max R ->Q - E -> W

Agressive: {ealy gank}
E -> Q -> W -> Q -> Q -> R: max R ->Q - E -> W

jungling paths: Lee can technically start anywhere on the map without leashes with the stated setup

routes:
1) wolves - wraiths - 2x golem- red - wraiths - 2x golems - wolves - blue buff
2) wolves - blue - wraiths - 2x golem - red - wraiths - 2x golem

counter jungling: {leave at least 1 creep per camp alive}
vs Skarner,WW, Ammumu, Udry, Fiddlesticks {basicaly any champ that starts at blue}

3) enemy wraiths, enemy red, enemy 2x golem, blue, wolves, wraiths, 2x golem, red, wraiths 2x golem

if they start at red
vs lee, Riven, shyvanna
4} enemy wolves, enemy blue, wraiths, 2xgolem red, wraiths ,2x golem wolves blue,

Jungling lee Doesn't require Wriggles lantern: however it does have many beinfits and syngerizes with lee's tool box nicely.

if i do buy an early wriggles i sell it late game for a better item.

Final builds: {listed in order of surivability -> higher burst{low surviablity} }
Tanky Dps:
mercury treads/ninja tabi, Warmog's armour, the Bloodthirster, Atama's impaler, Force of nature, Trinity Force

Trinity off tank {my own build}
mercury treads, hextex gunblade, Radunim's Omen, Force of nature, Trinity Force,youmuu's ghost blade

nukie Sin {my own build}
mercury treads, the Bloodthirster, infitity edge, last whisper,Trinity Force,
the blood thirster {or sword of the occult if you can maintain 6+ stacks

I do have several other build ups that i use but im only going to list three general builds.

situational items:
ageis of the legion
Quick silver sash
Frozen mallet
Guardian angel

starting items:
boots of swift ness + 3 heal pots
or
Vampiric Sceptor
or
Cloth armour + 5 heal pots
or
doran's blade

each of these is a valid starting items for lee sin: how you start is up to you and your playstyle

general notes for each:

boots allows faster walk paths, easier escapes early lvls for ganking and agressive counter junglng.

vampiric sceptor safer less risk jungling no wasted money on heal pots.

cloth armour heal pots: strong 1 v 1 if expecting to defend or initate agressive coutner jungling, less dependance on life regen to survie jungling paths, offers more agressive paths.

doran's blade: higher early game burst damage for ganks, some life steal and more life.

lee's build order is based on farm and what postion your team needs you to perform as.
i cannot give advice on how to build each of the final builds as my order always changes from game to game.

what i can say is that mid- late game lee becomes item dependant and requires alot of farm if you are struggling and cannot get in good ganks use gold per 10 items to transition into late game. {trinity off tank build is great for this}


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Engrish

Senior Member

06-09-2012

I just bought Lee Sin last week too due to the double IP weekend. I completely suck with him and I'm constantly practicing my ward placements, W leap onto friendly minions, and my Q shot accuracy. Too many times enemy minions get in the way of my Q shot and I end up leaping toward a dumb minion..............

Is there a good youtube video on Lee Sin techniques? The advice StrmCkr is very good but I also wish to see it in action (and maybe slow-mo).


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