Some simple Volibear playability thingies

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Asdioh

Senior Member

01-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iklo View Post
I am not saying his ganking is bad for jungling I am saying his clear times are terrible. There is a chart of clear times someone made and it showed Volibear in the last 5 of jungle clear times; over 4 min...
This made me curious, so I googled: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...any=true#gid=2
Is this it?

Man, when you put it like that, it makes me really sad. His ganks are really good (especially against low mobility champs, which don't exist because mobility creep?) but that clear time is just awful ._. you can thank *EIGHTEEN SECOND COOLDOWN* Frenzy for that.


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Iklo

Senior Member

01-01-2013

Quoted by SquirrelyJoe at

http://www.reignofgaming.net/forums/...about-volibear

"Volibear was actually my very first champion, haha.

I bought him a few weeks after I started playing and loved him, but as I got better, I realized that he's not all that great.

Here are the three roles I've seen Volibear in: Jungle, Solo Top and Support. Support Voli works ok with his flip and his slow, but he's outclassed by pretty much every other support. He has no sustain, and mediocre CC, which makes him "meh" at best as a support.

Jungle Voli works a little better, but again, he has no real sustain, which hurts him. His clear time is pretty bad, and his ganks are below average. If you can manage to land your flip/slow combo, you might be able to successfully gank someone, but Voli has a real problem with his initiation, whether in ganks or otherwise. Volibear has to run up to you and physically attack you to use his flip. This makes him incredibly vulnerable to CC/kiting. His slow also requires you to be in at close range. If you see a Volibear running toward you, just CC him and run away before he can flip you. His stun CC combo is just too easy to avoid.

The only place Volibear actually does ok is as a Solo Top. He can build extremely tanky and still have good damage output from his W. However, volibear does poorly in lane, since all of his moves require him to be in melee range. This makes him extremely prone to harass and poke from the enemy laner. Once team fights break out, Voli does a little better, but he's usually behind in CS and experience by that point, making him kinda useless.

Voli really doesn't work even as a pure tank, because he's just not disruptive enough to be a problem for the enemy team. His damage output is still pretty high, but single-target, nuke damage on a tank is not very useful. Ultimately, Volibear can do a lot of things with "meh" results. The problem is that whatever Volibear can do, there's another champion who can do it better. Need someone tanky? Amumu, Nautilus, Malphite and a host of others do it better. Need a tanky support? Alistar, Leona or Taric all do it better? Need a bruiser? There are probably a dozen champs who all do it way better than him.

TL;DR: He's lots of fun to play, and I can still stomp noobs with him, but he just has no place in the current metagame. Name any role voli can do, and someone else can do it much better than him. Makes me sad, though, because he's still one of my favs =P"

This pretty much sums up all I have to say about Volibear.


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Iklo

Senior Member

01-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asdioh View Post
This made me curious, so I googled: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...any=true#gid=2
Is this it?

Man, when you put it like that, it makes me really sad. His ganks are really good (especially against low mobility champs, which don't exist because mobility creep?) but that clear time is just awful ._. you can thank *EIGHTEEN SECOND COOLDOWN* Frenzy for that.
Yes sir that is it.

Thank you very much for looking that up for me. Doing my work for me :P! Can you see Volty why Volibear is terrible at jungling? His clear times are so slooooww. Even compared to naut they are slow, but naut's ganking potentional skyrockets compared to Volibear. He is 4th to last on that chart I believe.

LOOK AT THE FACTS RIOT.


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JimMaru

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Senior Member

01-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iklo View Post
[...]

One thing I disagree with in your post is that his q does reset frenzy and does add them.
I don't mean that his Q is bugged and resets frenzy, I meant that if you could keep the stacks for the whole duration of your Q, it would be awesome to come out of Wraiths ganking mid with all stacks or not to lose Frenzy while chasing runners.
It's a quality of life change, but doesn't seem that OP since it's situational.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestya View Post
AP on Voli isn't good either. That's kind of his entire problem; he's a walking base damage monster who gets to kill the **** out of you with his execute since it scales with HP. Right now it's basically build HP and CDR, then some atkspd. He needs to have some shifting from the stick to them and kill them 100-0 (which he very much can do if he sticks), and give him more options to not just lose if he can't close in (very easy to prevent him from doing so).

Also, this idea of shifting him to AP is kinda silly. His Q and W are both physical based, why would you want to shift that over to magic? Not to mention he gets atkspd from his W buff, which is more physical basis. I get that his E and R are magic but...making him full on AP would be disastrous. He doesn't need the damage types shifted or changed, and I don't think he needs AP to be important on him. His playstyle as of now, is alright it just needs power shifts and binary play removed. The general FEEL is correct as is though.
The idea of building AP Voli is not to build him Straight AP tank like Vlad or anything like that. You build him the normal way, but whenever you're going to get something with AD you change for the AP counter-part.
Like getting Warmog and then Rilay's instead of FM and since Resistances stacking is bad now instead of Wit's End go for Nasho's since it gives a LOT of CDR.
Then for MR you get either Abyssal if your team needs it, otherwise you get Spirit Visage.
The problem now is that there are many other good options for a top lane for MR (Runic Bulwak) and AS (Zephyr is OP on volibear, though expensive) and CDR...
Building AP was stronger on him S2 than now, because anything top can melt you if you try to build for lategame only.

The idea of building AP is because Voli falls late game, so you would at least be able to be a general threat to all the enemy team just by being alive.
220+ magic damage ult, with MPen Marks (or AS) and Abyssal active and a lot of AS would make you deal a lot of Raw damage in the team fights even if you couldn't reach the enemy carry, making you less kitable/blockable in TFs...

Currently my build focus on getting a lot of Health and max CDR/utility:
-Boots of Swiftness
-Warmog
-Spirit Visage
-Iron Fist
-Zephyr
-Ruby Sightstone or something else.

It still relies on base damage, but it seems to work S3....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samflash3 View Post
How about this for an ultimate

Passive: Every 4 attacks sends out a bolt that damages 3 nearby enemies
Active: Grants Volibear increased attack speed, movement speed, armour and takes 50% reduced cc effects from slows for 5 seconds.
Gives a lot of things to Volibear that he already has on his kit. Basically, it's all his kit and more on one single skill... Doesn't seem right to me.

I like his ult as is, because it's what gives Voli his Team-fight wrecker niche.

Also to everyone saying he should have AD ratios or that his AP ratios shouldn't be there:
Then why even make a champion that is THUNDER based that relies on raw power? I wanted his kit to fit more his design.

I mean, he is an armored bear with no defensive steroid, the passive "Chosen of the storm" is a lot of health regen that makes no sense lore-wise. He is a big bear, so he should deal huges amounts of damage when auto-attacking: He has only an AS steroid and no AD scaling. Since when do you see bears scratching people slowly to death? Worse, when do you see a bear FRENETICALLY scratching people to death?
At least his Bite Execute makes sense.
Now, he is the Thunder's Roar, but he only has one thunder based ability on a huge cooldown and though it's his ult, he can't do almost anything while that's on cooldown...

Volibear is not just a mess on his scalings, he is a conceptual mess too. I love him, I main him, I would play him over anything else and I really like his kit. Doesn't mean it makes sense to me...
Champions used to NOT have AD rations on Skill, look at Yi, Tristanna or MF (W and E) for example. They are all strong (not THAT strong, but balanced still) as AD champions. Two of them can be good AP too.
If you wanted to make him rely on Base damage and utility, then focus him on that, but make sure he has a good niche to him and clean up Scalings and design choices. I don't want to give him AD ratios because it just doesn't make sense on him.
His AP ratios also are lackluster since AP items are less than optimal for Melee AP champions (only for Assassins with they are good, otherwise are caster items).

I don't think that AP items will be good on him whether he is the same or he has a tweak on his ratios, because they are either for casters or assassins, but I'd say that AP ratios make more sense on him and being able to fit one or another AP item on the build shouldn't feel that awkward on a Thunder based champion...


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A bouncy Furret

Senior Member

01-01-2013

I don't have the time to sit down and join in on this discussion with you guys (I'm sorry!!) but it looks very interesting.

I have been reading a lot of it though. So long as there's no flaming I'll be happy with any discussion about the bear. I hope Volty gets to read it all too.


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Asdioh

Senior Member

01-01-2013

The heck am I supposed to build on Voli in S3? I just kinda improvised last game, thought Warmogs+Icefist thing might be a good idea, gives the slow like mallet, gives more health, armor and CDR, but I took too long building it >_> largely because I started cloth armor, then remembered it doesn't build into anything I wanted, so I ended up getting Aegis first.

But yeah, what've you had success with? It's cool that Cleaver gives health now, but I doubt it's worth it on voli.


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Iklo

Senior Member

01-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asdioh View Post
The heck am I supposed to build on Voli in S3? I just kinda improvised last game, thought Warmogs+Icefist thing might be a good idea, gives the slow like mallet, gives more health, armor and CDR, but I took too long building it >_> largely because I started cloth armor, then remembered it doesn't build into anything I wanted, so I ended up getting Aegis first.

But yeah, what've you had success with? It's cool that Cleaver gives health now, but I doubt it's worth it on voli.
Really, nothing has changed for Voli imo. He has lost some of his key build points tho. Something that made him optimal in Season 2 was the gp10 items like philo stone and hog. This made him less relient on farming and allowed him to stay into late game. He also lost Ionic Spark which was perfect for him to say the least. Wits End is still great on him and stacking health/resistances for his tankiness. Thats about it. I usually put an Aegis in my build if I find the support isnt rushing it and I also put a warmogs in there. Wits is his go to AS item as it makes him tankier while also giving him a good amount of AS although the new Zephyr is good on him, but the AD isnt needed. Randuin's, Spirit Visage, Frozen Mallet, situational Banshee's Veil, pretty much anything with health. I like to build him a straight utility tank tho with lots of cooldown reduction so I usually put a Stinger in there for my AS but do not upgrade it into a Zephyr because I do not like the AD on Zephyr and have a Spirit Visage also for CDR. Then build depending on what I need for that game.

His jungle is okay sadly. His clear times are terrrrrrribad, troll you could even say, but his invade is great if you practice and know your opponent's clear times. His ganks are great if they dont blow a summoner escape spell. The best thing to do as Volibear is to play smart and know your limits because one early game death can put you very far behind in the jungle. Now once you do know your limits and play a little bawlsy then you can really rack up the kills early game. I watched a Volibear get leashed at red go straight to his blue, get that, then go straight to enemy red kill their jungler, get their red, gank mid, gank top, and B. It was beautiful. He is completely binary tho, which means if you do great early you will have a great game, if you do not do well, build straight tanky do not feed early and peel for carry in teamfights after that because thats all you can do if you get behind.

Top lane is very binary as well. He does counter many popular top laners though such as Vlad.

Support is good low elo, but higher up he is trash teir support, dont embarrass yourself.

The reason why he is not doing amazing in the jungle right now in Season 3 is because Season 3 is all about farming early and ganking early is risky. His clear times are so bad that if he tries to farm the whole time he will fall behind because he is so slow, but if he tries to gank and fails he is even more far behind because he wasnt farming and he died. However, if he gets the kill during the gank and clears some of his jungle he is somewhat ahead of the game and can snowball from there. He is fun to play, but simply outclassed by almost all junglers according to the chart posted above.

Edit: Also, in my opinion, Frozen Fist is terrible on Volibear because of its passive proc which procs after you cast an ability. His cooldowns are soooo long that it doesnt work on him very well. That item is meant for champions like Hec or Skarn who have short 2-3 cooldowns that they spam in teamfights for damage output. Frozen Heart is much more suited to Volibear because it still gives massive CDR, ARM, and a great passive that cripples ADCs. In addition, Frozen fist gives mana which isnt a huge problem on Voli and it gives AP which is def not needed with Volibears long cooldowns and lacking AP scaling on his e and r. Furthermore, Frozen Fist does not give health which somewhere in your post you say it does. :/

Cleaver is suited toward AD assassins/casters. They value arm pen, cdr, and maybe a little bit of health. Think of Zed, Panth, Irelia when you see this item, hell it works on Rengar, Renekton, alot of champions... Kha. I would say that Voli doesnt need this item because he has no AD scaling in his kit and also doesnt need the arm pen considering his only AD damage comes from autoattacks. I mean if you really want to try a straight bruiser Volibear build you could build: Frozen Mallet, Zephyr, Black Cleaver, Atmas, Merc Treds, maybe Spirit Visage for MR. It is a low tankiness build for Volibear, but your autoattacks with def hurt.

WALL OF TEXT EEEEEEEEEEK


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JimMaru

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

01-02-2013

I disagree with a some stuff lklo.
You say he has no scaling with ad, then Cleaver is bad on him. Well, his main source of damage is a physical burst that needs 3 hits to stack and a AS steroid ("60%" more AA damage [that becomes "weaker" the more AS you have]).
It can work if you build around Frenzy, getting lots of health and running Armor Pen runes it will make your W do a HUGE burst. It also gives CDR which is good on Volibear and helps push/farm if he wants.

The way I see it Volibear can be built 4 ways:
- Tanky with focus on W for damage. (Super Health Stacking Volibear)
- Tanky with focus on Ult. (AS, CDR with some AP Volibear)
- Full tank with focus on utility (Auras, lot's of CDR and MS for initiations and damage sulking).
- Hybrid Tank trying to balance W and R. (Tanky with health stacking and AS)

The first one is more of a Selfish build. Will rack up lot's of kills early and mid game, but late game you will fall off hard since you will be kited and will have problems staying on squish targets to burst them. Nonetheless you will be still very hard to kill, but since you have to initiate you won't be able to pick your target and your ult will deal less damage so you will be a chunk of meat on team fights.
Tip: Finish your game fast if you go for this.

The second one is all about snowballing. If you get ahead you can go for this build. You will be less tanky than the average Volibear, but will have much more damage potential. This build dishes out lot's of damage, but has the problem of sticking to your target. Since you need your ult to deal damage you can't really trade well. You need to be on a do-or-die fight to excel. This is the Volibear that is strongest lategame and on team fights, but he needs someone else threatening on his team so he doesn't get easily focused.
It's good when you have AP junglers like Diana or Supports that dish out lot's of magic damage and someone else tanky, with strong initiation on the team (again, Diana).
Good items after warmog are: Abyssal, Rylai, Nashor's, even Thornmail if you run MPen runes and Abyssal for a nifty combo.

The third one is all about trying to stay helpful for your team as much as you can throughout the game and being unkillable. Run around checking for wards, face-checking bushes and trying to be disruptive on team fights while trying not to take the kills. It's the build you should go for if your team isn't doing well or if you're behind. You will be there to ensure your team can safely fight and even though you can't be as disruptive as most tanks, you will definitely be harder than kill than then (but Cho, because, well... he is Cho). This build also let's you do more reckless things to distract the enemy like jumping on 3 or 4 of them and then run around while your team mates get one objective or two.
NOTE: This build is weaker now than ever, with furor boots and lot's of new items it's harder to escape and initiate...

The last build is the one most people use, those who loved Ionic Spark definitely played like this. You get health, you get resistances and you get AS to try to use most of your kit and try to stay relevant on all parts of the game (though you still fall of a bit late game).
This build makes you as close to a bruiser as you can, though still ult reliant if you want to be toe-to-toe to another bruiser late game.
You will probably get stuff like FM, Warmog, Wit's end, old Ionic Spark, Spirit Visage, Runic Bulwalk... A bit of everything but usually avoiding AP (unless you want to fit in a Rylai's there).
It's a good build, but beware poke comps, they hurt.


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Iklo

Senior Member

01-02-2013

Well, he doesnt have any AD scaling... His q and w are physical, but his w scales off health not AD and his q only has base damage and no scaling. The only AD damage you will be doing is AAs, w (even though it scales off health), and q (only base damage). I think the damage output of his physical damage is much less than his ult and e combined in a teamgifight. Furthermore, Cleaver is def not meant for him. I am telling you it works somewhat on him, but it is meant for AD casters like Panth, Rene, Rengar, Irelia, Zed, anyone with somewhat short-medium cooldowns and high burst damage output through physical damage. The only burst Voli has is his w while his ult and e are consistent damage through magical power. Many assassins get Cleaver like the ones I have already said, but tanks/fighters/bruisers/utility tanks/whatever Volibear do not. Sure there is health, cdr, arm pen, AD, but he doesnt need AD or arm pen because the only ability arm pen helps is his w and AD only helps his AAs. Do not stack AD on Voli it isnt good.


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Asdioh

Senior Member

01-02-2013

Yeah, I guess frozen fist sucks on him because of his huge cooldowns. It's too bad. Voli badly needs a Frozen Mallet-type item, but Warmog's is better on him for survivability, and both is overkill and too expensive.

So what does Voli need? If he plans on putting himself in the middle of the enemy team and dealing *tons of damage,* then he needs plenty of health, armor, and MR to survive. He needs an attack speed item to greatly increase his team damage output. He heavily benefits from the slow from Mallet so he can actually stick to targets. He doesn't really need AP, armor pen, magic pen, or attack damage. CDR is debatable, I think he needs very little because even with lower CDs you're not going to be able to use your spells frequently in a teamfight.

See, my problem is that I want to build Warmog's, but Mallet is just so clearly better. Anytime you build Warmog's over Mallet, you'll miss the slow more than you would have missed the extra HP. It's too bad there's no Armor+AS item, that would make itemizing Voli easier: Mallet, Spirit Visage, ArmorAS item, and you have a solid build. Plenty of HP, attack speed, resistances, and sticking power.