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Some simple Volibear playability thingies

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Ownmyship

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
2. Make the spell worthy of a cast time. This could be by adding another mechanic, like a material chunk of upfront PBAoE damage. Could even collapse the E into the R as a single (cast-time) spell and make a new E.

that actually sounds great, but anything new to volibear probably would sound great to voli players, he doesnt feel that great right now, his ultimate is what bother me the most, its auto attack enhancer, and doesnt provide enough threat to enemies, now that i started to think about voli i only realize he doesnt feel right at all..

his q is good, bear running on all fours is what bear should be doing, his passive can be activated very easily by enemy if they want it, but k, maybe lower cooldown could fix that since he has no armor/mr steroids...

his e is what bothers me also, its mini garen ult wich requires voli to attack 3 times, i would rather see lowering the damage on it, and cooldown and making it usable whenever its on cooldown, drop the sticking to target requirment
e is great in jungle, but boring spell to use outside of it

r is one of the most unorginal ultis in game currently, it looks nice, but feels lacking, enemies can easily spread out, or just kite you till your ult goes down, or till you die, but thats general melee champion problem

so do whatever you want with voli, just change him somehow already


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SoBeNirvana

Adjudicator

12-18-2012

Quote:
KiIIerGecko:
Why Volibear Was Okay in Season 2
Here is my indepth briefing on Volibear. Volibear is in the top three of my favorite tops.(Along with Cho'Gath and Warwick.) I have played Volibear in every lane, including mid(He is a counter pick to mid Soraka.) and have had the most success with him in the top lane. In season 2, I played Volibear as a teamfight tank, capable of 1v3'ing the enemy team. I focused on working with I have found Volibear to scale best with. Health and Attack speed. I have tried several Voli builds but have found faults with many of them:

1.AD Volibear: The problem with AD volibear is that none of his abilities scale with AD. an AD volibear may do decent single target damage, but will lack in all other areas.

2.AP Volibear: I used to think this was the best way to build volibear, but his ratios are too weak and you are only "deceptively" tanky, because while AP volibear has a lot of health (RoA, Ryali's, ect.) he has no resistences. It also doesn't scale as well as just building AS.

Standard Old Build from season 2:
1. Merc Treads
2. Ionic Spark
3. Wit's End
4. Randuin's
5. Warmog's
6.Force of Nature

This build had decent resistences, but what made volibear a beast of a teamfighter was the incredible regen (full build, you could see the +21 health tick coming out of you WITHOUT baron buff), High Attack speed (His ult scales EXTREMELY well with attack speed. Given his ult last 12 seconds, If you have 2 auto attacks a second, you can get roughly 2000-2400 magic damage over the course of a teamfight. Not even including Ionic spark procs. The movement speed from force of nature helped with his problems of getting kited.

Why Volibear is worse off in season 3
With season 3, Volibear has extremely nerfed itemization. First, attack speed was nerfed across the board. It is now harder for volibear to find it. Wit's End is still fine and dandy. Force of Nature CAN be replaced by Spirit Visage, but the movement speed from FoN is missed. It is now easier to kite volibear. Warmog's passive is not as strong as FoN, so the regen volibear used to enjoy has gone. Even Randuin's doesnt have the regen OR health anymore. Volibear needed both of those. Shiv is in no way a replacement for ionic spark on Volibear. Not even close. Ionic spark gave volibear EVERYTHING he wanted. A lot of attack speed, health, and an AoE passive that just so happen to have an effect that looked great on him. Another item problem is that HOG is gone. I agree, it needed to go, but it helped Volibear gain gold during the laning phase. Yes, you can get avarice blade now, but crit volibear is just terrible. I have tired it, using different combinations of triforce, shiv, and impaler but it is just a bad build. It suffers from the same issues as AD volibear. Decent single target dps, but lacks AoE and tanky power.

So how to fix volibear?
Volibear has mostly itemization issues now, but kit issues exist too. I will talk about his kit first, then itemization since I already touched on that a bit.

Passive: His passive is great. I can't image what else could be done to it. It makes him a great duelist and baiter. I would change nothing about it.

Q: I like his Q, but with all the blinks and dashes it can be hard to catch people. There is no reason to level Q either since the damage you get from leveling it is useless. If anything, I would rather just have that damage removed in favor of increasing the utility of the ability. increased movement speed or movement duration would be very useful.

W: This ability is great, the only issue is keeping up the stacks without sticking power. There are gaps between your Q and E that allow people to escape. Also, there isn't as much health floating around as in season 2, so that nerf to his W hurts even more now. It would be great if the stacks stayed a little be longer, or gradually went down levels if you didn't attack. Also, with the attack speed nerfs to items, perhaps some attack speed can be given to his W to make up for it.

E: Great on Jungle volibear. The idea of moving it to his ult, and making a new E is great too. If I had to fix his old E, I would just want a CD reduction to decrease the gap time of an enemy escape. If I had to make a new E I would want it to help is itemization problems that he has now. Maybe some type of ability that gives passive regen, and when activated it gives resistences while losing the passive for the duration of the cooldown. Or perhaps passive attack speed?

R: His R is great. I love it, and the only thing I would change is the cast time when he uses it, but you already said that should go.

Now that leaves itemization. The main thing that has nerfed volibear are the attack speed nerfs. I will keep saying this, Shiv is not a replacement of Ionic Spark. Its just not. It takes to long to build shiv up, it cost more, and does less damage on the proc. Sure, it gives volibear the movement speed he was missing from force of nature, but shiv gives no health(which volibear needs), less attack speed, and and it cost more. Ionic spark was a great item to have mid game because it was cheap, and great for teamfights. Ionic Spark was made for volibear. Wait a second...

As I am writing this, a great idea dawned on me. Give Volibear the Rengar treatment. enable Ionic spark again, and allow it to be a Volibear only item! Just like bone necklace. Anyway I digress.

There aren't enough attack speed, and tanky items for volibear to have. Wit's end is still there, and I have been trying to find a way to make Zephyr work. There is less regen because all the regen items volibear built are gone. This is an issue because during the laning phase, you could build the components for FoN and/or Warmog's (the regrowth pendants.) so that you could stay in lane longer, but now you have to get the new potion.

In closing, the regen nerfs, health nerfs, and ESPECIALLY attack speed nerfs have hurt volibear. I don't think, well didn't think, his kit needed many tweak to be good. Withall the items he used being useless now his kit will have to make up for them. Ionic Spark needs to come back, as it was useful on some of champions (Shen, Volibear, situationally Olaf, on hit builds.) I mean, why keep nashor's tooth and remove ionic spark. They both only work on a handful of champions. At least be consistent. Alright, im done with my two cents. Oh, and Volibear wants a new skins. Just sayin.


I agree with most of what this guy said. But with one exception - I hate Volibear's ult. It doesn't scale well. It has zero utility. It feels bad to use, all around in all three roles and in every lane.

Volibear's ult feels like a regular skill. A crappy regular skill. It basically feels like Kayle's Righteous Fury but weaker, with poorer scaling, on a longer cooldown. Dude needs a new ult.


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Ravechaosknight

Senior Member

12-18-2012

I don't jungle period. Anyone I'd Jungle with I usually take top or support. I don't think an unreliable toss and an unremarkable Slow are good enough utility to justify taking him to the jungle over other Tanks like Amumu/Naut/Maokai.

Voli works remarkably well with said tanks though because while they are QR(Amumu, Naut) or WQ(Mao) Voli can R without worrying about his cast time and then he can Q. And that is my opinion. Nothing wrong with that.

Now onto my preferences. I want to play him top, but am not against a support oriented Voli. I really like the idea of offloading most of his damage to W and R and giving him a different E. I really like the idea of a Defensive steroid and/or AoE heal. Only problem is that effectively puts him square in Ali's area of expertise. And endangers him of being nerfed into support oblivion.

Ideally I'd like Q to be an effective re-positioning tool(of enemy champs), W to be a reliable damage(whether sustain or burst), E a Heal/Defensive Steroid, and R a AoE Nuke/Sustained damage.

I would personally love a new R that combines E's Aoe CC with current R's sustained AoE damage. It would put him much more in line with other Tanks like Naut or Tank-supports like Galio(Another of my favorites whom I play mid and occasionally support, but build Tank.)

tl;dr Prefer Top lane Tank/Fighter, who could in the right team Kill-lane support. Also love the idea of comboing his E and R into a better R.


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Swanky

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Volty:
I've gone through a bit of this thread tonight. You guys, Ursa Arcadius and friends, are raising some great points. I'd like to improve Volibear. The front runner issue for me is to resolve how R's cast time feels bad, because standing still to cast is directly counter to the melee gameplan.

Two possibilities immediately present themselves:

1. Remove the cast time. (Boring but direct.)
2. Make the spell worthy of a cast time. This could be by adding another mechanic, like a material chunk of upfront PBAoE damage. Could even collapse the E into the R as a single (cast-time) spell and make a new E.

Thoughts?

Sorry I haven't had been responsive to this thread. Let's see what we can accomplish together!


Give him Aoe damage on his ulti and then second toggle give him the E, then give him a new E


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Zeirnaton

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Volty:
A lot of good discussion already! But also a lot of varying points of view.

I agree that understanding our desires for role and lane will be helpful. If you reply I request that you state your preference for lane (e.g. top, jungle, lane support) and role (e.g. tank, fighter, melee dps).

I will consider and do more research tomorrow.

hit R it automatically activates E but this time....it fears the opponenent


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Cyraknoss

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
SoBeNirvana:
I agree with most of what this guy said. But with one exception - I hate Volibear's ult. It doesn't scale well. It has zero utility. It feels bad to use, all around in all three roles and in every lane.

Volibear's ult feels like a regular skill. A crappy regular skill. It basically feels like Kayle's Righteous Fury but weaker, with poorer scaling, on a longer cooldown. Dude needs a new ult.


I'll admit that, it does feel like a regular skill when you don't have the gear for it, and short of doing really well you wont have the gear for it, but if you're doing that well and haven't won the game there's something drastically wrong. I'm okay with his ult shifting but I honestly don't think it's really necessary from a numbers standpoint, it's really only desirable from a "look how cool it is!" stand point which I'm not sure is enough justification.

Quote:
I don't jungle period. Anyone I'd Jungle with I usually take top or support. I don't think an unreliable toss and an unremarkable Slow are good enough utility to justify taking him to the jungle over other Tanks like Amumu/Naut/Maokai.

Voli has first clear times on par with Maokai and Nautilus with better hp for early gank. Has faster clear times later because of stacking W, and movespeed. He's got more reliable ganks than Nautilus or Amumu both of whom can be ruined by a minion or a poor toss and if they dont get their grab down are reliant on the laner to atleast burn the enemy's flash. Voli on the other hand like Maokai isn't reliant on dodging minions with a skill shot which means he'll always force the flash if they have it, and unlike Maokai the enemy flashing away when you start your gap closer does not have a chance of dragging you inescapably into turret range.
Amumu is the only one I'd actively choose over Volibear and that's just because of his faster clear time and the fact that his ult has better utility. Naut and Maokai don't bring anything special to the table over Volibear and both require a more complicated and costly build than Health = win.

Reworking Voli around top lane will require him to get an anti-cc move or a ranged farm ability, the first will make him absolutely OP in most scenarios and the second just feels wrong for an armored bear thematically. Just reworking his ult might make him feel better but wont change much for any of his roles. Taking away the minion fear and slow from E will completely ruin his jungle, weaken support, and solve exactly zero of top lane's problems. The fear on E is crucial to Volibear's safety in first jungle clear, the slow is instrumental on many of his successful grabs so losing it would cause jungle ganks to weaken and support's engage ability would suffer similarly.


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Seros WindRunner

Junior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Volty:
I've gone through a bit of this thread tonight. You guys, Ursa Arcadius and friends, are raising some great points. I'd like to improve Volibear. The front runner issue for me is to resolve how R's cast time feels bad, because standing still to cast is directly counter to the melee gameplan.

Two possibilities immediately present themselves:

1. Remove the cast time. (Boring but direct.)
2. Make the spell worthy of a cast time. This could be by adding another mechanic, like a material chunk of upfront PBAoE damage. Could even collapse the E into the R as a single (cast-time) spell and make a new E.

Thoughts?

Sorry I haven't had been responsive to this thread. Let's see what we can accomplish together!


I thought about a simple thing, but i don't know if it's "worthy". It's just that he could get another dps buff while under his ultimate effects. Kinda compensates the cast time.


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Knight of Dusk

Senior Member

12-18-2012

The ultimate is getting a lot of flak. I partly agree, it feels weak and it actually scales worse than Kayle's E, but remember that she had that scaling buffed recently, it used to be worse than Voli's and he gets free AS too. I guess the problem here is that they would like to give Voli the same boost Kass and Kayle got to help the odd AS/AP builders, but since the base damage is so high (which is neccesary for non-ap builds being his primary damage source) and it's harder to avoid because of bouncing... you get the idea.

I'd love to see something better of course, but the current ultimate is FUN. I love chain lightning. Moving it to E as a weaker skill and giving him an awesome CC ult would be cool. You get jungle speed, and wicked pushing and farming power. But that also means it has to be a lot more underwhelming for balance. And what would top chain lightning as an ultimate? It would have to be some heavy CC if he loses his old E, naturally, but it also needs to feel great.

Giving him some sort of FINAL FORM ultimate would be cool, boosting all his other skills slightly and including the AoE CC from Majestic Roar on cast.

But that would be a great change to his playstyle and be intruding a little on Shyvana's territory. The typical large AoE CC that stuns/roots/silences/etc also feels like it's been done already, which is a shame because that would make him more useful on a team level.


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Primanocte

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Top lane and jungle are where he belongs. He's ok top lane right now, but you took a bad jungler and made him worse with the new s3 jungle.

He's also frustrating to build due to the variety of stats he needs.


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TheWackyWombat

Junior Member

12-18-2012

Voli has been one of my favorite characters since he was released and I have to agree that his ulti feels rather lackluster.

Truth is, I've never been a huge fan of it. Despite being explained in his lore, I never really felt that it fit his character that well. I've always found Voli works best when built as a tanky bruiser, tying up the enemy carries during team fights. His ultimate relies so heavily on attack speed and magic damage that most of the punch is lost by mid-late game.

If you're looking at improving/changing voli's ultimate here are a couple suggestions (I apologize if these have been said before, I didn't want to read 130 pages).

1) Not only remove the cast time, but give Voli a movement speed buff while under the effect so he can engage better and stick with the enemy better while under the effect.

2) Swap his R to E. Make the E a single target slow that chains to nearby minions, sort of like Kat's bouncing blade. His R could then be a AoE fear that effects champions as well as minions, in team fights the effect would be similar to Amumu's ult.

3) Make his R damage dependent on AD or, ideally, % Health.

4) Give the ult a passive when it's on standby, like Blitz. Ideally increased health regeneration or resist/armor bonus so you have the choice of more tank or more DPS.

5) Make his R shorter, but empower his other abilities or decrease their cooldowns. Perhaps he could build 2 frenzy charges per attack or E gains the ability to fear enemy heroes.

Long story short, I really love Voli's Passive, Q and W, they fit the character and synergize very well, but his E and R could use some work. I don't think it would take much, and I'm really open to different ideas, but I'd really like to see his ult have the ability to change group fights and not just feel like another basic ability.