Some simple Volibear playability thingies

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Hidden Sniper

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Senior Member

12-18-2012

I like him jungle... I build him with a lot of tankyness with some threat (health, armor, mr items that also give damage) . So... He's a tank/fighter? Goes in, initiates, disrupts, soaks up damage while dishing some out? (After all his passive encourages health and so does his Bite) I like pretty much everything about him, but his R feels lackluster, but I don't want it changed to something that gives him less threat and team-pressence or ability to duel. .:x

(Especially because since the season 3 changes defensive stuff seems less effective)


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A bouncy Furret

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonw View Post
Put some thought into this volty. I think your proposition of folding E into R would probably be the best start. But then to come up with a new E.....

So I think the best thing about volibear is how his Q and W abilities look and feel like what a bear does. It runs wrecklessly at its prey and then bites a chunk out of it. So to continue this feel, the new E would be a lunge that thrusts both of volibears paws into the ground in front of him. A similar mechanic to nidalees pounce that lunges him in the direction he is facing. I got this idea from polar bear hunting when they bash their paws into the ice looking for seals. Here is a video to show what I'm thinking (skip to 1:10) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nrr7nZVdQQ .

Now what this ability does. He lunges in the direction he is facing crashing both of his paws into the ground in front of him doing some damage. The area around this becomes a conductance field empowering volibears basic attacks and abilities increasing their damage slightly.

This ability allows him to clear waves, provide his jungle with some aoe, and add a touch more sticking power. And you get to feel like a wild bear smashing things.
I think this would work on someone like Vi, but on Volibear it wouldn't fit him well.

He's pretty mobile so forcing him to fight in an area in order to win isn't great and he chases the squishy fast ones.

But it would look better on someone like Viktor (visually). Natural lightning doesn't stick around.


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Cyraknoss

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volty View Post
I've gone through a bit of this thread tonight. You guys, Ursa Arcadius and friends, are raising some great points. I'd like to improve Volibear. The front runner issue for me is to resolve how R's cast time feels bad, because standing still to cast is directly counter to the melee gameplan.

Two possibilities immediately present themselves:

1. Remove the cast time. (Boring but direct.)
2. Make the spell worthy of a cast time. This could be by adding another mechanic, like a material chunk of upfront PBAoE damage. Could even collapse the E into the R as a single (cast-time) spell and make a new E.

Thoughts?

Sorry I haven't had been responsive to this thread. Let's see what we can accomplish together!
No, please dear god no, hands off the bear!!!! I run him jungle right now and he is PERFECT, if you fix any of the small annoyances, like R cast time he will be OP and get nerfed to oblivion. If you shift his E away into R it will absolutely RUIN his ganks. The e as it is now is needed both to make him one of the most reliably able to gank early game and to actually catch characters like Ezreal who inbuilt flash away. The slow when you're just out of range of the Q flip secures so many ganks that moving it will absolutely break Voli.

Currently I main Voli in the jungle, W>E>Q first 3 spells, stack in same order. Build Ancient Golem, Swift boots with alacrity, and Warmogs. If the game finishes at this point you've done it right, or possibly your team was too heavy for your shoulders. if you manage to build a 4th item congratulations on that sweet sweet gravy. If you've built a 5th item hi Snoopeh, because no one other than CLG EU will have a game long enough for that.


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GuiltyGecko

Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volty View Post
A lot of good discussion already! But also a lot of varying points of view.

I agree that understanding our desires for role and lane will be helpful. If you reply I request that you state your preference for lane (e.g. top, jungle, lane support) and role (e.g. tank, fighter, melee dps).

I will consider and do more research tomorrow.
Why Volibear Was Okay in Season 2
Here is my indepth briefing on Volibear. Volibear is in the top three of my favorite tops.(Along with Cho'Gath and Warwick.) I have played Volibear in every lane, including mid(He is a counter pick to mid Soraka.) and have had the most success with him in the top lane. In season 2, I played Volibear as a teamfight tank, capable of 1v3'ing the enemy team. I focused on working with I have found Volibear to scale best with. Health and Attack speed. I have tried several Voli builds but have found faults with many of them:

1.AD Volibear: The problem with AD volibear is that none of his abilities scale with AD. an AD volibear may do decent single target damage, but will lack in all other areas.

2.AP Volibear: I used to think this was the best way to build volibear, but his ratios are too weak and you are only "deceptively" tanky, because while AP volibear has a lot of health (RoA, Ryali's, ect.) he has no resistences. It also doesn't scale as well as just building AS.

Standard Old Build from season 2:
1. Merc Treads
2. Ionic Spark
3. Wit's End
4. Randuin's
5. Warmog's
6.Force of Nature

This build had decent resistences, but what made volibear a beast of a teamfighter was the incredible regen (full build, you could see the +21 health tick coming out of you WITHOUT baron buff), High Attack speed (His ult scales EXTREMELY well with attack speed. Given his ult last 12 seconds, If you have 2 auto attacks a second, you can get roughly 2000-2400 magic damage over the course of a teamfight. Not even including Ionic spark procs. The movement speed from force of nature helped with his problems of getting kited.

Why Volibear is worse off in season 3
With season 3, Volibear has extremely nerfed itemization. First, attack speed was nerfed across the board. It is now harder for volibear to find it. Wit's End is still fine and dandy. Force of Nature CAN be replaced by Spirit Visage, but the movement speed from FoN is missed. It is now easier to kite volibear. Warmog's passive is not as strong as FoN, so the regen volibear used to enjoy has gone. Even Randuin's doesnt have the regen OR health anymore. Volibear needed both of those. Shiv is in no way a replacement for ionic spark on Volibear. Not even close. Ionic spark gave volibear EVERYTHING he wanted. A lot of attack speed, health, and an AoE passive that just so happen to have an effect that looked great on him. Another item problem is that HOG is gone. I agree, it needed to go, but it helped Volibear gain gold during the laning phase. Yes, you can get avarice blade now, but crit volibear is just terrible. I have tired it, using different combinations of triforce, shiv, and impaler but it is just a bad build. It suffers from the same issues as AD volibear. Decent single target dps, but lacks AoE and tanky power.

So how to fix volibear?
Volibear has mostly itemization issues now, but kit issues exist too. I will talk about his kit first, then itemization since I already touched on that a bit.

Passive: His passive is great. I can't image what else could be done to it. It makes him a great duelist and baiter. I would change nothing about it.

Q: I like his Q, but with all the blinks and dashes it can be hard to catch people. There is no reason to level Q either since the damage you get from leveling it is useless. If anything, I would rather just have that damage removed in favor of increasing the utility of the ability. increased movement speed or movement duration would be very useful.

W: This ability is great, the only issue is keeping up the stacks without sticking power. There are gaps between your Q and E that allow people to escape. Also, there isn't as much health floating around as in season 2, so that nerf to his W hurts even more now. It would be great if the stacks stayed a little be longer, or gradually went down levels if you didn't attack. Also, with the attack speed nerfs to items, perhaps some attack speed can be given to his W to make up for it.

E: Great on Jungle volibear. The idea of moving it to his ult, and making a new E is great too. If I had to fix his old E, I would just want a CD reduction to decrease the gap time of an enemy escape. If I had to make a new E I would want it to help is itemization problems that he has now. Maybe some type of ability that gives passive regen, and when activated it gives resistences while losing the passive for the duration of the cooldown. Or perhaps passive attack speed?

R: His R is great. I love it, and the only thing I would change is the cast time when he uses it, but you already said that should go.

Now that leaves itemization. The main thing that has nerfed volibear are the attack speed nerfs. I will keep saying this, Shiv is not a replacement of Ionic Spark. Its just not. It takes to long to build shiv up, it cost more, and does less damage on the proc. Sure, it gives volibear the movement speed he was missing from force of nature, but shiv gives no health(which volibear needs), less attack speed, and and it cost more. Ionic spark was a great item to have mid game because it was cheap, and great for teamfights. Ionic Spark was made for volibear. Wait a second...

As I am writing this, a great idea dawned on me. Give Volibear the Rengar treatment. enable Ionic spark again, and allow it to be a Volibear only item! Just like bone necklace. Anyway I digress.

There aren't enough attack speed, and tanky items for volibear to have. Wit's end is still there, and I have been trying to find a way to make Zephyr work. There is less regen because all the regen items volibear built are gone. This is an issue because during the laning phase, you could build the components for FoN and/or Warmog's (the regrowth pendants.) so that you could stay in lane longer, but now you have to get the new potion.

In closing, the regen nerfs, health nerfs, and ESPECIALLY attack speed nerfs have hurt volibear. I don't think, well didn't think, his kit needed many tweak to be good. Withall the items he used being useless now his kit will have to make up for them. Ionic Spark needs to come back, as it was useful on some of champions (Shen, Volibear, situationally Olaf, on hit builds.) I mean, why keep nashor's tooth and remove ionic spark. They both only work on a handful of champions. At least be consistent. Alright, im done with my two cents. Oh, and Volibear wants a new skins. Just sayin.


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Lazris

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Senior Member

12-18-2012

I have tried to jungle as Voli and I feel it was lack luster. Not enough AoE or enough sustain as a single target. He kinda was in the middle.

I like him top lane. His ult is the weirdest thing to me. I mean it's a 75/95/115 Auto steriod. That's HUGE! But there is that slight deay you have talked about but there also is the thing where, you want to take advantage of it by building AS but then w/o your ult you do nothing.

His W and passive makes you want AP. But then you won't have AS to capitalize on your ult, it kind of conflicts.

While I think he is great, a new e for jungling or make him a very viable/strong top laner would be awesome.

Voli is prone to kiting and the W falls off at the WORST times. I kinda find his W as a nuisance. You have to get 3 stacks, if you don't get stacks your best ability is not available. If you do but lose them you gotta start all over. The need for 3 stacks to use the ability is really hampering.

While he has a strong passive, good Q, free AS from his W and a strong scale/execute, a AoW slow and a 115 magic auto attack buff.... he is just clunky.

The idea of E on his ult and a new E sounds like the best approach, make it best for top lane. Maybe a longer window of opportunity on his W since if the stacks fall off, you lose 1 ability until you stack it up again.


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Gilgamesh NA

Junior Member

12-18-2012

Well, since he is an armored bear that can calls lightning, maybe shifting E into R and then make his E increase his armor and magic resist and when an enemy attacks him ministun the enemy? Something like this:

E - Lightning shroud

Volibear roars, calling upon the thunder to surround him, effectively increasing his armor and magic resist by X for X seconds. Whenever an enemy attacks Volibear when the shroud surrounds him, the enemy is paralyzed for 0.5 seconds. This effect cannot occur more then X time on the same enemy.

The thing is, Volibear is a lightning bear. His current skillset reflects that, his Q that increases his movement speed, his W that increase his AS and as a finisher touch, taking a bite out of the opponent. Those things resembles what a bear does. But right now, his E and R are a bit of lucklaster because of said points. Shifting his E to his R will make it "logical" for him to have that current roar animation. Roaring to energize him with lightning and at the same time slowing enemies.

But he is an armored lightning bear. But really, his skillset doesn't really do anything with it. That's why I came up with something like a lightning shroud that strengthens his armor with lightning.


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Lazris

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Senior Member

12-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilgamesh NA View Post
Well, since he is an armored bear that can calls lightning, maybe shifting E into R and then make his E increase his armor and magic resist and when an enemy attacks him ministun the enemy? Something like this:

E - Lightning shroud

Volibear roars, calling upon the thunder to surround him, effectively increasing his armor and magic resist by X for X seconds. Whenever an enemy attacks Volibear when the shroud surrounds him, the enemy is paralyzed for 0.5 seconds. This effect cannot occur more then X time on the same enemy.

The thing is, Volibear is a lightning bear. His current skillset reflects that, his Q that increases his movement speed, his W that increase his AS and as a finisher touch, taking a bite out of the opponent. Those things resembles what a bear does. But right now, his E and R are a bit of lucklaster because of said points. Shifting his E to his R will make it "logical" for him to have that current roar animation. Roaring to energize him with lightning and at the same time slowing enemies.

But he is an armored lightning bear. But really, his skillset doesn't really do anything with it. That's why I came up with something like a lightning shroud that strengthens his armor with lightning.
I like this idea.


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IS1d413e2874b65a94708e7

Member

12-18-2012

i think zileas should post his thoughts on this matter too


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Knight of Dusk

Senior Member

12-18-2012

VOLTY, YOU CAME! Oh boy oh boy, Christmas came early this year :')

For roles, I personally love him in top lane AND the jungle as a bruiser/DPS fighter with a slice of defence if I do well. If I had to pick one, I'd say top lane, since his jungle would probably need the most help (simply achieved by giving him say, up to 25% monster damage passively on a skill, but I feel his kit already has a lot going on to be adding more without taking something away)

I'd like to highlight three issues I have and that I've witnessed being posted about by other players (within and without this thread).

Number one:

Easy to escape from once the initial slow wears off, which is a big deal when you have your ultimate active (losing Frenzy when chasing hurts too) which depends on you being able to stay in range. I liked your second suggestion about having an on-cast effect added. I also like that he poses and calls down lightning, the rule of cool and all, so getting to keep it in but making the ultimate worth it would be beautiful!

Number two:
He lacks any AD and/or AP scaling in the quantity/quality where it seems worth investing in. I didn't care as much previously because Ionic Spark + Wit's End gave you a good chunk of damage and synergized with your ultimate, but with Ionic gone I don't feel like there's a suitable replacement AND Wit's End got more expensive. I know most champions only built one of these but Volibear was among the rare cases that needed both available.

Basically, he needs to scale a little better with the new armoury of S3. Since attack speed has been the go-to choice for a long time now, maybe something in that direction?
Building power with each hit within a set period of time maybe.

Number three:
Squishy. He is listed as a tank, but he lacks the innate beef he needs to survive in such a role without investing a lot of gold which makes him rather dependent on being well fed and farmed. This makes it very troubling if you start falling behind, it's very hard to get back up.

His passive helps immensely once you have your gear, but I have a few gripes with that. For one, you don't have any control over when it happens, which blows when you have to wait two minutes if it triggered at a bad time (ever farmed in lane just before heading back and it went off because you got low by minion fire? It gets frustrating). Secondly, ignite + grievous wounds hurt it, a lot. But counterplay is good. I do like how it gives him a bit of a weakness against being bursted when he is low for example, so he's not some immortal pain in the neck if you're up against him rather than playing him yourself.

I have an example of a new passive that's listed in the OP (Storm Armour) but it does rid him off the health reg, which is sad because it is part of who he is. It's his thing (...and Mundo's). But if E were to be opened up for new things, maybe moving his sustain over to it for more control would be neat. Or giving him some other tanky option for it, life steal or spell vamp sort of fits. I mean, he is a bear. They wouldn't be opposed to eating a slain foe. Or one in the process of being slain. Cough.

Misc. thoughts:

-Q is very much a one point wonder. It makes it easier to tell how you should pick your skill order. But if it scaled more as it levelled (the speed, or a new effect), wouldn't you present the player with more options and customization?

-Frenzy strikes me as being a skill that emulates Volibear fighting harder the longer he is in the fight, leading up to his ultra mega finisher, the bite. But what if instead of being restricted by stacks, his bite got stronger with each stack? Would this diminish counterplay and would it improve or hinder his flow? What if the execute portion, which many feel is out of place on him, was shaped into something different? Since it is a bite, some sort of sustain or debuff would be fitting.

-If E isn't merged into his R, it could be interesting to make the skill more interactive. Say instead of just slowing enemies, if they were struck shortly after by an ally, they would be feared or stunned for a very brief time, alluding to Volibear grabbing their attention as his allies seize an opportunity.

-With Ionic Spark being in a better place (R.I.P old buddy ) Volibear has a harder time farming (and clearing the jungle later on). Having a weak Spark like passive added onto his Ultimate for when it isn't active could remedy this.

-Volibear's initiation isn't the best, he is easily shut down before he can throw his target. Giving him CC reduction when Q is active would help, but would it make him too strong and hard to kite?

-There needs to be a 5 Volibears vs 5 Zileans pre-game show at the next World Championship. Riot plz.

-Oh and by the way, could we maybe, perhaps, sometime, get a new skin? I-If its not too much to ask. ;-;
I liked the idea someone had of a Ursa Major (the star constellation) themed skin. All ethereal like and filled with stars. I'd link to it and the awesome concept art but I can't find it.


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FrznTear

Member

12-18-2012

Hello there, I am a player who currently mains Jungle Volibear.

Amazingly strong early ganks and great presence and damage output in early-mid game fights make Volibear fun to play and an excellent pick if you can win the game early. However, his late game power is disappointing.

Currently his jungle clear speeds are a little slow but thanks to fear and damage from allies he has enough health for very powerful level two ganks.
Flash+Flip+Slow is devastating, the following happen
1) Get a kill if your laner has enough damage output
2) Burn the enemy flash and come back later while it is still down
3) Deal enough damage that your laner has an easy time
4) accidentally dive turret and give up first blood

In both solo queue where you can take advantage of enemies lacking communication or premades where you can use your communication Volibears early ganks are scary and I have forced numerous early surrenders, which is rather fortunate.

This strength is balance with susceptible to counterganks. Long cooldowns mean that if the enemy jungler shows up after I blew my stuff I get outdamaged. It also hurts that the stuff on cooldown that I use to initiate is what is also used to escape, Volibear can get in but cannot get out. High-risk, High-reward.

The season three item changes helped Volibears clearing speed after his first back, it is no longer unbearable. However, being 100% melee without any in-combat mobility forces Volibear to build full-tank making mid clears still pretty bad. I usually build lots of cooldown reduction so when I take a buff it is fine if I burn my ultimate. Late game I will miss a teamfight or two while taking buffs.

Speaking of Volibears ultimate, as soon as he gets it is pretty great, it give him sustained damage throughout a fight making him a threat. However once the enemy team gets aegis and beefier with levels and other items the storm simply tickles.

Volibears niche later in the game is catching enemies out of position, with proper ward coverage am enemy support going to ward baron or ap carry clearing blue is susceptible to Shurelias+Q and flash if necessary creating 5v4s.

Late game if the match is revolving around teamfights, which it tends to, Volibear has a rough time. As a tank he lacks the initiation strength of Amumu and Malphite and their damage output. He has no defensive steroids and mobility that keep Shen and Riven alive. The only thing he can do in a fight is try and keep enemies off his carries with flips and slows.

This really sucks because Volibear with an execution and great early damage output rakes up a lot of kills if played successfully, but if it reaches late game and people are finishing their builds he cannot do anything. He can't build damage because his scaling is wonky and even if he did he has no burst.

I can't deal damage, I don't have an mass aoe cc ability that wins teamfights, I can't even stay alive, I feel bad. I don't feel like a viable choice.