One Tier List to rule them all

First Riot Post
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Sauron

Senior Member

06-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tortferngatr View Post
Hmm.

Does your tiering of Viktor take into account Viktor's double ult glitch? It essentially lets him perform the initial (decently powerful) burst of it twice, and you can find it on Youtube. I've replicated it in customs and bots myself.

Just asking, I'm still fairly content with Vik in a lower tier.
It does not. It also doesn't take into account the bug with Viktor's items where other champions can buy them and use his abilities. Both of these should be fixed soon (Other champions using Viktor's stun might already be fixed actually).

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadysKnight View Post
Could Sauron or InFe eD give a little explanation on how to beat Jax bot? He's not exactly easy to poke and you certainly don't want to get too close. I feel someone like dps Fizz might have a shot if you can dance around him but it seems like he's kind of unstoppable without Yorick or Urgot against him.
Jax is better counterpicked than counterbuilt. That said, armor stacking really ruins him once you get to very high levels of it. I remember one time ZaberZ decided to troll with Taric and got 450 armor and actually 1v1'd Wukong and won, even with Wukong's LW and % armor reduction on Q.

Warden's, Thornmail, and Frozen Heart are all key items for countering Jax. Ninja's Tabi also helps mostly in the early game. The best way to fight Jax as a caster is to stack armor and build MPen; for attackers, you want tons of life steal with that armor.

Champions that specifically cause problems for Jax in bot lane are:

Ahri, Alistar (ArPen/Trinity build), Caitlyn if played well, Cassiopeia, Darius, Gragas, Heimer if played well, Kayle, Lee Sin sometimes, Malphite, Malzahar if played well, Maokai, Mordekaiser eventually, Morgana if played well, Nocturne sometimes, Nunu, Pantheon sometimes, Sivir if played well, Vayne if played well, Urgot, Yorick.

Of all those picks, aside from the obvious "op" ones, I'd say Maokai is the best generalist counter with his base numbers allowing defense stacking to be viable.

IF you can avoid Jax's stun thanks to a slow or stun, then do so. Otherwise, fight him near brush (speed shrine if ranged) and make sure you are the one camping in it. Jax is definately one of the hardest melees to counter in blind pick.


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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

06-14-2012

I don't like Yorick as a counter to Jax once mid-game rolls in, he heals more off of the ghouls than he loses health. And Kayle as well, once mid-game rolls in, and Jax just goes in on her and smacks her down. Even early, she pushes better than him, but she still doesn't have too much to do if he ever gets a stun or a phage proc on her.


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inFe eD

Senior Member

06-14-2012

AD Malz is one of the easiest and strongest counters to Jax. Just build defensively: manamune + heavy armor stacking with a lategame Last Whisper, and you should beat Jax after early game even if he gets QSS. You just need to play passively early, since he has a advantage on you early until you get your armor stack rolling.

Darius wins hard early; he just has major issues lategame if you let him farm up.

Or just take Malphite bottom and never die.


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Hinagiku

Member

06-14-2012

Heya Sauron,

I know you've talked earlier about building lulu, and as someone who loves and plays lulu as their primary dominion champion since she was released, I was wondering if you could recommend rather specific alterations in how I build/play my lulu, who has served me very well. I'm not high or anything (1900 ish) and pretty much only play blind pick (not the most favorably looked up mode, I know), so I was also wondering how different, if at all, the meta there is from life at the top and if it affects builds etc.

I rune for flat cdr, armor/level, mpen marks, and movespeed quints.
I run 0/21/9 focusing on survival and movement speed. Garrison/Revive every game.

Build is generally boots/prospectors ring to start with hp/mp pots, then getting ionian and glacial shroud, followed by FH/aegis/shurelias/qss, unless the enemy team is very AP heavy, where I'll go for MR/scepter/qss after the shroud. If the team is exceptionally autoattack heavy I grab a Warden before the aegis.

I'm very used to surviving, kiting, cc, etc but as I don't run flat mpen items or offensive items beyond the prospectors (which mainly is for early boost), I pretty much have to stick to a partner at all times and do fairly small amounts of damage directly.

My skill order tends to reflect my defensive play style, with emphasis placed on ranking E (after the initial one point in each) followed by W and finally Q. Would a transition to a more offensive build order be recommended? Are there other glaring issues with how I generally play lulu?


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Sauron

Senior Member

06-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethereal Sol View Post
Heya Sauron,

I know you've talked earlier about building lulu, and as someone who loves and plays lulu as their primary dominion champion since she was released, I was wondering if you could recommend rather specific alterations in how I build/play my lulu, who has served me very well. I'm not high or anything (1900 ish) and pretty much only play blind pick (not the most favorably looked up mode, I know), so I was also wondering how different, if at all, the meta there is from life at the top and if it affects builds etc.

I rune for flat cdr, armor/level, mpen marks, and movespeed quints.
I run 0/21/9 focusing on survival and movement speed. Garrison/Revive every game.

Build is generally boots/prospectors ring to start with hp/mp pots, then getting ionian and glacial shroud, followed by FH/aegis/shurelias/qss, unless the enemy team is very AP heavy, where I'll go for MR/scepter/qss after the shroud. If the team is exceptionally autoattack heavy I grab a Warden before the aegis.

I'm very used to surviving, kiting, cc, etc but as I don't run flat mpen items or offensive items beyond the prospectors (which mainly is for early boost), I pretty much have to stick to a partner at all times and do fairly small amounts of damage directly.

My skill order tends to reflect my defensive play style, with emphasis placed on ranking E (after the initial one point in each) followed by W and finally Q. Would a transition to a more offensive build order be recommended? Are there other glaring issues with how I generally play lulu?
I'm not the Lulu guru, that would be zimike, but considering how many games I've been placed with/against him I've gotten to watch his builds play out. Lately he has been doing a support-y build with Chalice, and I really do think his former build of tank/MPen was a much stronger team asset. I'm going through his match history of Lulu games and while probably not a direct cause, he really did win a lot more with his former build.

As inFe eD brought up earlier (another top Lulu player), she can get away with ranking Q first for the base damage (and then E) because the base functionality of her W is strong at rank 1. That, combined with the general efficiency of tank/MPen on many caster champions, lets Lulu be a very damaging harasser while not sacrificing very much support.

There isn't anything wrong with your runes/masteries, and Lulu is a great team fighter so you should generally be with others. She is also a great disruptor and ganker, though, so she doesn't always need to be with the team. I don't think you're doing anything wrong in your play, you're just playing out your item build as it is.

Give the infamous tank/MPen setup a shot and see what you think of it (It uses almost the same runes, sans CDR): Sorc's, Sweeper, Guise, Abyssal, FH, Odyn's. R->Q->E->W. 0-21-9. Swapping out Sweeper for Zeke's, or Guise for Aegis, are optional choices depending on team. If you're abusing Glitterlance to the maximum, you don't really need Warden's at all.


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MyDeadGrandma

Senior Member

06-15-2012

Wait. How do you get to use Viktors abilities as someone else?


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Sauron

Senior Member

06-15-2012

People were buying the blue augment (somehow) and getting their W replaced by Viktor's upgraded W. I haven't kept up to date on the status of the exploit, but it was happening in SR ranked last week so its probably hotfixed by now. I'm sure it was just an oversight on serverside checks.


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Tortferngatr

Senior Member

06-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron View Post
People were buying the blue augment (somehow) and getting their W replaced by Viktor's upgraded W. I haven't kept up to date on the status of the exploit, but it was happening in SR ranked last week so its probably hotfixed by now. I'm sure it was just an oversight on serverside checks.
It was actually a cheat script. People were also walking through walls when they did stuff like that.

The Viktor double ult bug has been around for a while and hasn't been fixed yet. It might be worth considering. If we ported Pudge directly from DotA, and didn't fix his ability to curve his hooks via glitch, would he be tiered here without that ability?


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Panwar

Senior Member

06-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tortferngatr View Post
... would he be tiered here without that ability?
Holy **** dude. It's just a tier list. Argue all you like(that seems to be what they are for) but it doesn't really matter where Sauron puts champs on a tier list or for what reason. It's a cool guide, and all that, and a nice look into the way a pro Dom player sees the game and some of the champs. But it's silly to belabor minor points in a list that is supposed to be a rough guide that is also highly variable when player skill and champ interaction are taken into account.


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Tortferngatr

Senior Member

06-15-2012

Alright, sorry about that. I just like asking about stuff like this.