The Non Ajustable Camera Angle - Removing Fast Terrain

First Riot Post
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XxDramxX

Junior Member

07-11-2012

I personaly dont get motion sickness however i would love to have a more top down view of the game, if you spawn on purple in summoners rift you are at a major disadvantage because you dont have as large a view of the blue lane, even if you remove the HUD alltogether you just cant see as much and it drives me crazy. I thought there was a way to change it but I have looked all over the forums and the net and found NOTHING to make playing on purple side easier it just is infuriating to lose because you CANT see other champions in the other lane when they can see you as clear as day.


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Hunzuu

Junior Member

07-18-2012

RIOT please bring it back. I never liked playing this way. I hate it!!!


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ilililillillilil

Member

09-30-2012

I started with "Hi there" as my opening line but this seemed to casual of a way to introduce my contribution. So I what I decided was if I give the reasoning behind the title of my post (as posts usually do not have titles) then it won't seem as strange (probably worth re-reading this part after you've read entire post).

The conceptualisation of the posters feelings into computer programming language ideas for Riot programmers (who are hopefully the people who make the decisions)

I have read every single comment just to let you all know first off so I'm not just coming in here posting my two cents about what I think of the first few comments, though I admit I have not read all the seperate posts regarding this issue (there is a limit how much time I can invest into answering this). But this post chain seems to be a summary of the feelings of all the other posts so I'm going to assume they accurately represent what the population who is effected by this change is feeling and hopefully I can conceptualise these feelings so as Riot can see why they should (or they deem)/ should not re-implement the option. I am from New Zealand so please excuse my New Zealand English which closely resembles England's English and not American English which I have assumed is most of the posters native written language.

Here is what I think are some reasons to posters complaints about things such as "can't adapt"; "motion sickness", to "performance shouldn't be top priority". I've also put in answers to questions I think Riot would ask (as I have studied computer science hopefully they make sense) some questions they would ask may be. "If we bring back the option what good logical reasons can you come up with to support us doing this?" which actually now that I come to think of it really answers the biggest question they could ask.

The fundamental levels of LoL:

League of Legends is 2D there is no third dimension there's only Height and Width. So the simplest way to represent all the information needed to play the game was a overhead 2D birds eye view. This means no additional information was needed to be processed by the players brain that would be of any use in making the most optimal decision.

This leads to the question:

Whats the point of producing a 3D visual image of a game that's gameplay is actually only fundamentally 2D?

Reasons for bringing back the option of changing camera angle to 2D:

:: As a note I can't find a way to indent a line as you would in python language coding to represent that it's part of the above function so i just used //------- so i could force visual distinction between where things are indented or not indented loops.
:: be represented on a new line before the text i wanted so it could push the text along to visually show the indent. Also any line starting with "::" means it's a comment which
:: may pertain to the code just below or just above context should usually be clear.

:: These people (people who used this 2D style) like the old style because they have played at least the majority of their games in this style which gave them all the
:: necessary information with minimal amount of information. Another note I'm trying to keep the gap between English and computer code language as small as possible so
:: there may be sometimes where it seems it's a note but I'm not using "::" to show it as that.

// Now THE_POSTERS are struggling to process a 3D visual version of the game because they are used to the old 2D style.

:: THE_POSTERS = people who have expressed an opinion or idea about the change to the option of 2D style of League of Legends
:: THE_POSTERS may also be represented as English words like "them", "they" and other such representations.
:: SKILL_LEVEL is the true score of skill excluding all factors other than skill. So only relative to itself which really means it's subjective but it's not.
:: MECHANIC_MANIPULATION = "MM"
:: MM = Amount of changes a player can make to how they can play with the games settings to gain some advantage or disadvantage.
:: PERFORMANCE_LEVEL = (SKILL_LEVEL + MM) / (amount of variables) in statistics this as known as the mean.

//---------- The SKILL_LEVEL to MM ratio represents an overall PERFORMANCE_LEVEL which drops when they can no longer inflate their MM ratio by using this 2D style.

//-------------- With 2D removed this increase they used to have in Mechanic Manipulation drops and so the skill level becomes closer to a 1:1 ratio (SKILL_LEVEL(variable; integer) becomes closer to MM(variable; integer)

:: I did not delve into deeper ways it could distort PERFORMANCE_LEVEL as those three seem the main ones. But further analysis could show
:: many more causes or an underestimation of affect certain cause has on a proportion of the population and by what scale.

//---------------------- For most of the players this means a drop in PERFORMANCE_LEVEL which is the average of the two values of MM and SKILL_LEVEL. All of the rest can adapt fast enough to this change so that it is not noticed OR the 2D visual effect didn't inflate their MM anymore than 3D MM would.

:: I also apologise for any loop errors where they should be equal loops not indented loops which in python represents a "seated loop"? Basically for every iteration if conditions are met if would jump into next loop. Again I have limited time to spend on this and I'm slowly updating it as I can. I'm also have done first year Computer Science at University of Canterbury so i may be using incorrect items such as ::' " to represent what they mean in different programming languages I've only learned Python and that was 2years ago.



A question for the people who get motion sickness:

"Do you get motion sickness by the 3D visual world you perceive with your eyes?"

For now I can only guess until i receive and answer to the question from a decent amount of replies.

The answer I would assume most likely is that almost all of you would say "No" (No vs Yes, No represents <50% of the time, Yes is 50%<):

"The answer to why you do not experience motion sickness is because 3D vision in the world has always been your default view (majority of populations default view) of your visual world and so you've always had to experience the visual world in 3D"

The question then arises "Why do you experience Motion sickness while viewing the game but not in the real world where both are viewed 3 Dimensionally?":

The answer again I guess is that in the real world things need to be represented at least 3 Dimensionally in your visual understand to be able to have enough information to make a good choice (what a good choice is, is an entire different thought experiment).

The question then arises "How can I stop experiencing motion sickness?":

"You have to play worse and relearn your basics and how they are represented in this 3 Dimension visual experience, you actually have to put in mental effort to work out why things are harder to predict and why old logic no longer applies and is not the best fit. Then the player must come up with a solution such as a model of a solution and test that model, if the model seems to fit / "Best Explanation" for the current understand then you accept this new model and disgard old ones.

:: In the last sentence I explain why it requires mental effort (this again is only a model of best explanation)

I have finished answering the motion sickness part of the debate. while i do accept i have not given an alternative for people not willing to put in effort that will be addressed later on.

I am now answering the question from the posters an explanation they may understand about the performance increase. This will be in plain English and that is the perspective I assume most are comfortable with.

I was firstly going to start with a Official post from Riot on there stance that this change was made because of some performance increase that no longer was useful. But this specific threat has ONE Riot Official post and it has no information as to that being a reason for them removing the option. But lets assume that all these posters haven't just built up a silly rumour that Riot said this. If it was that case that Riot said this, then what are their reasons that this performance increase (via the removal) of this option outweighs that of the benefit the option gives to it's customers.

As a New Computer Scientist I can almost none. It almost only ever takes a very small proportion of processing power to do a single task. How many tasks required to represent 2D vs 3D should theoretically be less because there is less information. So it's not that by removing 2D you are improving performance but by removing the need for the engine to be able to run both at once reduces overall processing requirements. lets do some simple maths. 2D League requires 100 processing units per second where 3D requires 1000, the processing requirements for 3D is 10 times higher than that of 2D but if we want to run both the required processing units is 100 + 1000 from 2D + 3D which comes to 1100. Any gamer playing a game with someone who is using 2D and others using 3D would need to be running both simulations so it could understand how it's representing information in both styles.

If you remove 2D version you effectively remove 100/1100 amount of processing requirements per second needed to run the game for all computers. which is 0.091 or a 9.1% increase in performance (hopefully the maths is right). Now if 1million gamers gained 9.1% increase in performance, that is 91,000 processing requirements per second that all 1million players computers don't have to now do.

So if the issue was that the increase in amounts of players who can now play the game due to less demands on processing units per-second (e.g. bad computers) then so long as the amount of people who join cause they can now play because of this performance increase is more than the amount who leave, they get an increase in popularity. This could explain why the performance issue is important to them, IF it's actually a true reason they gave in defense for cutting the option (i can't find their post about this).

So Hopefully I've given at least one example (the one above) that shows how in a situation losing the option is more beneficial for them then keeping it

What I need to show now is the posters counter argument to this idea, the idea that they are not just losing numbers of people but also other important values they should want to keep.

In the simplest form skipping as many logical leaps as I think i can without losing sight of answering the question.

Players you are losing Are Veteran Players.
[1] These players spend more money, [2] understand the game better, [3] recruit more new players and [4] teach these new players how to play the game.

[1] losing equal numbers of players as your gaining is an overall loss in net $$
[2] Losing understand of the game means it becomes more stale as old ideas have to be discovered by new players
[3] older players more likely to recommend game to friends, per player will recruit more new players than new players recruiting new players
[4] without older, more experienced you get [2] but also there is no one to teach them information already known which leads back to [2] but also that [5] you never progress and discover new ways to play the game.
[5] you never progress and discover new ways to play the game using the old concepts.


I wish show the two major options that should influence your decision between the two sides.

Option A: Providing an easier visual setting (2D) to increase PERFORMANCE_LEVEL of the player by inflating the MECHANIC_MANIPULATION (MM) value in relation to SKILL_LEVEL Value should only be done IF by losing [1] or [2] or [3] or [4] or [5] or any combination of those would cause a decrease in a overall value of League of Legends that also takes into account the benefits of new Players and other variables.

OR IF AND ONLY IF In calculations in option A you ignore future calculations that would effect the values in some way.

Option B: Is the Future plan for league of Legends is that you want to make the game harder by removing the 2D option (which in many peoples opinions is better).

Here is my reason to option B

To implement this, a 3D version of the game needs to be designed (not just visually 3D) where the game is played in a 3D world and everyone about the world is 3D not just the visuals. This requires much larger amounts of programming (which entails more staff; more cost for the company; etc) than just simply forcing the view to change from 2D to 3D.
By doing this you will alienate the players who are veterans and non-vets who don't adapt.

In doing this you will lower the ratio between SKILL_LEVEL and MM - between players with different views (2D vs 3D).
Basically players who ranked higher because the game was simpler (2D vs 3D) either adapt stop playing and players who played with a higher SKILL_LEVEL but Lower MM would notice that enemy players with inflated MM would have a lower PERFORMANCE_LEVEL till they caught up.

This would allow the transition of 2D gameplay LoL into 3D gameplay much easier on the overall population whilst not alienating the people you are alienating now via the removing of this option.

But if you reverted back the option change for now so that you could phase it out (the length of which I can't accurately guess would be optimal). During this phase the players know it will eventually be gone so they can ease themselves from 2D to 3D mush less abruptly (less change means less change resistance (Organization Psychology) but also you have longer time for them to accept 3D as the norm so when it's finally the only option they are happy).

So to Riot,

To you I say this (summarised form), please give clarity to the exact reason that performance is the priority reason for removing this option in detail what you rationalisations are. If it turns out that this is actually not the most important reason, make sure the posters know this.
From here find out whether the cost to benefit ratio is larger for now (but less in the future), an example is World of Warcraft (WoW) and how they are losing many veteran players because they cater to only the the $ which comes from new players and the player base gets slowly but surely filled with major less experienced players. If you don't plan for the future you will follow in WoW's footsteps that is in about 3-4years people will leave your game for a new one.

People who stick around stick around because they feel you care about what they think and how you design the game they play is influenced by their opinions and losing your core beginning players means losing a lot of old ideas and 'ways' of playing a game that make it so dynamic that breadth by most vets is understood and they go deeper into unraveling the mechanics of their chosen characters.

Also there's no point saving face if your losing out in the future for present benefits if you want the game to last. The only people who want this option returned or "fixed" are the ones who use it (I do not use this option (did not know it existed till I read this forum post chain)) I am just using my computer science knowledge and reasoning and psychology knowledge and reasoning with philosophical knowledge and reasoning to help allow you riot understand your customers point of view better and hopefully helping the customers understand riots point of view better.

In my opinion based of the above discussion and thought experiments in my head.

I would bring the option for 2D but phase it out over time making sure they know it will eventually be gone and why it will be gone. They need to have enough time to get used to a 3D visual version of the game while weaning off the 2D.
For anyone not willing to change at this point well it's really their problem, if you are not willing to learn and adapt you actually aren't a very useful part of the community (Charles Darwin's Theory of Natural Selection anyone!?). I would decided somehow mutually between how long they want the 2D to last for and how long your willing to let it stay and come to a happy middle ground for both riot and the posters.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- END OF POST -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PS:
I'm sorry for any grammatical errors, I have only read my post thoroughly once (actually about 4times now) and proof read and rewritten some sentences and restructured some paragraphs (actually every single one and every sentence). I also realise I use "s" instead of "z" in some words, I am from New Zealand and we use England's English not American. I also know even in both American and England's English you do not double bracket (this is done in computer science) but I do this because we are talking about computer science concepts any riot employee who is a programmer who reads this will be able to follow the logic very easily and they're sort of my target reading audience.

I also understand that not everyone can understand programming language it is a language you need to learn, but i also know that i probably butchered intricate parts of how even python programming language works. But if a riot employee reads this, see's that wow a dude for only 1 year of computer science can think of all this then send me an email talk to me I'd love to go more in-depth on ideas that you find unclear thinking about this stuff tickles my brain in funny ways and I really enjoy thinking about it.

On a funny side note I've spent more time trying to make this post as perfect as possible than i did writing my Philosophy Essay for my University Paper


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Sereg Anfaug

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Senior Member

09-30-2012

Why do the reds need to gather "Specific information"?

Isn't it enough that alot of players don't like the bull**** fixed camera angle? Why not simply make it adjustable?


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ilililillillilil

Member

10-07-2012

Guess I'll just bump this up to first page.