Champion Creation Tips v3

First Riot Post
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Katsuni

Senior Member

01-15-2013

Elementsteel brought this to my attention quickly =P

Anyway uhm... it can be fun, but it can also be massively frustrating as well. The issue here, is that it can't be truly competitive; it's too easy for two teams to gang up on one which can't defend themselves. A team fight is a pretty major deal, and if it's a 1v1 affair, the team that didn't bother to participate at all has 5 fresh people against a crippled team of their choice.

This, by default, leads to immediate benefits for doing nothing, which is an inherently bad problem, because it means no one will want to attack, because whoever attacks is at a massive disadvantage, even if they win the team fight, due to having to run back to heal afterward.

As such, the game will quickly stagnate and get kind of boring ;_;

It's a shame since it's a nice concept, and it'd be fun against bots! It just... wouldn't work against players who can abuse it.


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ploki122

Senior Member

01-15-2013

Well, thanks for confirming my doubts... It was pretty much dead-on my opinions... but then appears key factors like maybe a Dominion-style map, where you can't "defend" as well as a few other key concepts, but you confirmed my 2 greatest "fears", First one being the forced stalemate (which not everyone understands, sadly), and the second being that it's actually possible. Also, you might see some unexpected new forum development (although nothing major, more like a RiotAmes peek-a-boo style of thing) coming from nowhere. You're not the only one with nasty plugs .


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Ansarum

Member

01-30-2013

thank you so much for making this guide! really helped me in fleshing out my ideas onto the form though still constantly re-reading these suggestions and updating my concept through feedback and review. I am catching mistakes left and right lol. next item on the list is to /quote for boxes and bold to help organize the information better!

thanks again!


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BrokenSteele

Member

01-31-2013

Just read your guide and I gotta say I'm jealous of your experience @-@ lol.
I've started a concept of my own just for fun but now I'm getting really into the process of this design. Unfortunately I've decided to come up with my own new resource to go along with this new champion for the sake of a fun revision of Mordekaiser's shield mechanic.

Was just wondering if you could just go over the his passive and tell me what you think?

Rix, The Demented Entomologist
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3052481

Is it something I should go on or do you think I should change the idea or just drop it altogether?

Sidenote: I wish I read your post on Naming conventions sooner xD would have put more thought into his name but I didn't realize how important it was until I decided to read the names of existing champions.


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CrazedPorcupine

Senior Member

02-06-2013

I'm gonna go ahead and bump this as well, I'm probably going to look at my own champs passive and see how I can change it to really fit more with his kit. If you want to look at it and tell me what you think, I'd LOVE to hear it!

Kraitos, The Time Knight
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3090514


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Gaarstyn

Junior Member

02-06-2013

On the subject of mana costs, how many uses do you want out of each ability before you're out of mana each level? The more details, the better. Thanks!


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Katsuni

Senior Member

02-06-2013

Heihei peoples; there's a few requests for reviews of specific abilities, of which I'll try to get to fairly shortly =3

As for a more pressing issue, we have a question on a specific topic not 100% covered in the guide in enough detail, asked by Gaarstyn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaarstyn View Post
On the subject of mana costs, how many uses do you want out of each ability before you're out of mana each level? The more details, the better. Thanks!
This is a lot more complex than yeu may first think, for several reasons.

First off, there's no universal answer; a champion with many spammable weaker spells (Sona) will require that the spells be cheaper individually.

Second, if the mana costs increase per level (or if they don't on some of their spells), yeu have to take into account whot the player is likely to level first, and how often they're likely to use an ability (Veigar isn't going to spam his stun every single time it's up; he's going to wait for a good opening, but he will spam his Q every cooldown).

Third, it's not honestly about the mana drain of a single ability, but of all the abilities being used on a regular basis.

Fourth, it won't even just be about the abilities being used every time they're off cooldown, but rather predicting how frequently they'll be spammed.

Toss in that yeu're also going to have to make assumptions about runes/masteries/itemization (a support champion itemizes differently from an APC generally), and that the itemization changes wildly based on things like the skill of the player at last hitting (or lack thereof as a support), how many kills/assists they're estimated to get, and so on.

This makes it a remarkably messy to figure out concept.

For an example of how I went about estimating the mana drain and rates of leveling skills, here's an example from another champion concept I did awhile ago:

Quote:
Temporary notes for balancing mana costs of abilities. Ignore this post if reading.


Likely build order on itemization until enough mana return to make mana negligible:

Q / E / Q / W / Q / R / Q / E / Q / E / R / E / E; unlikely to go past this.

Estimated gold income: 3.0 from quints, 16 base, 2.0 masteries; 21 / 10 baseline, assume at least 5 poke hits from range per minute on average clearing during lane phase for 165 additional gold due to range.

Philo: 700g (5per10)
Kage's: 765g (4per10)
Sightstone: 700g (8.33per10 assuming consistent use)
Ruby Sightstone: Upgrade of 600g (4,17per10 upgrade assuming consistent use)

Assume wealth at +50 base, assume SR for balance purposes.

Sightstone gained at roughly 297 after first 30 seconds, so 5.5 minutes into game, with assumption of no confirmed assist during this time. Assume enemy had to return allowing for free farming.

Wards at start able to cover until then; negligible cost for laning phase after; will increase later. Boots on second trip back; grab philo at +308s assuming at least 1 confirmed assist + 1 tower down in pro level game. ETA of Philo roughly 11 minutes. Do not assume dragon kill; bonus gold rather than assumed.

Laning phase assumed to be over, estimated 2.6g/second income +1.46g/sec assumed from average assist rate of 1 per 2 minutes. 4.06g/sec estimate, requirement drain of 2 additional wards per 3 minutes, plus upgrade to ruby sightstone required. ETA of Ruby+Kage's: 336 additional seconds. 5.5 minutes additional, assume standard deviance to round to 16 minutes due to varying factors.

Wards now drains 1.25g/s even with ruby due to additional warding. Kage's adds 0.4, assume team fight with at least 3 bonus assist, Tier 2 boots + chalice, 316s, ETA 19:15 under standard high end play.

Bonuses from doing well are not counted.

Note mp/5 rates at various time intervals:

Level 1: 5.6 estimated base +1.299 alternative sources standard support build.
Level 8: 9.8 base +2.792 itemization/other
Level 11: 11.6 base +3.089 alternate
Laning phase over, sustained mana usage unimportant.

Gross mana gain:

1: 6.9/s
8: 12.6/s
11: 14.7/s

Desired mana drain rate:

1: Approx 50% faster than gross gain (10.35)
8: 75% faster than gross (18.9)
11: 75% faster than gross (22.05)

Therefore, total mana / time on Q must be approx:

10~10.5/sec rank 1; estimate 50-55 mana per 5 seconds cooldown. Shield better balanced at 10 second cooldown, assume 100 base mana to cast. Could split this by having secondary cast cost 50% value of primary, but don't do it due to clutch play requiring charges already, it would feel unpleasant to need two mechanics to cast in clutch moments, and not be able to tell in advance at time of original cast. Secondary cast amplification only drains charges.

Level 8; rank 4 Q, rank 2 E, rank 1 W, rank 1 R (negligible, want R separate choice, not standard spam). Assume total of 18.9/sec drain with Q on continual cooldown for harassment/shielding. 10.0 from Q, assume 8.9 for W+E average, assume needing only approx 1 W per 30, 1 E per 15 on average. Approx 3.5/s W, 5.4/s E, or 105 mana cost W at rank 1, 80 mana cost E at rank 2.

Mana costs do still seem particularly high, especially on Q. Lowering base regen may compensate, making itemization choices more interesting.

Total lower of base regen by 1.75/s allows Q cost to decrease approx ~17.5 per cast. Could lower to 75, but this adds too much mana back into the player's hands. Decrease of cooldown unappealing, but could lower to 8 seconds from 10, would come to 58.8 to reach intended goal.

Update Q to 8 second cooldown, 60 mana at rank 1; up by 5mana/rank to 80 at rank 5. This allows for ease of calculating mana costs assuming 10/s drain. CDR of 5.35~6% distinctly possible on standard build due to desire for 40% cap. Set base cost to 55 at rank 1, up by 5/rank to 75 at rank 5. Should correct discrepancy early game. Unlikely for significant CDR until after chalice added to build.

W assume cooldown of 20 @ 110mana/cast for discrepancies.
E assume cooldown of 15 @ 65/cast all ranks for discrepancies and adjustment to W.
R assume not related to primary mana cost issue; keep same drain at all ranks because I personally hate the idea of ranking up a spell which only gives a tiny damage upgrade, but greatly increases mana drain. 8/second cumulative should work about right; 120 cost for first 5 seconds active seems reasonable.

Total mana needs to be updated to reflect drain rate. Itemization doesn't include mana, but 10/level from masteries should be accounted for.

Assume current base 225 +40/level (+50 w/mastery).

Rank 1: 275
Rank 8: 625
Rank 11: 775

Drain rates:

Rank 1: approx 80 seconds until empty
Rank 8: ~66s
Rank 11: ~70s? May need to increase mana per level cost on E to compensate. Was kind of hoping to avoid, though. Q will be maxed by now, so don't touch this.

Increase base mana by 25, lower total by 5/level.

New level 11 mana: 745
New drain @ ~67.5s

Correct direction. Overcompensation on Level 1 mana produces drain too slowly. Lower 5/lvl again, don't increase base.

Updated level 11 drain: ~62s. Ideal reached.
Doublecheck level 1 drain: ~84s

Could tweak a little better. Base off by 13.8, adjust by -15, should be about right.


Base mana: 240 +30/level

All other supports sitting at approx ~45/lvl increases, however, to base mana. May need to ramp up costs slightly. Issue likely due to two semi-long cooldown spells. Could fix by having a shorter cooldown/duration on E? Q is not the right direction to poke at due to level increment important, not base here.

Increase mana/level to 42, need to increase base mana cost of E by 10 to compensate. 75 should work, would have preferred 65, but this should do.

Base mana: 240 +42/level

Q mana: 60+5/lvl
W mana: 110+10/lvl
E mana: 75 all ranks
R mana: 8 cumulative/sec all ranks
Anyway, this is a rough idea of my reasoning concept, and note that this specifically ended up with a champion with an abnormally low mana regen rate because I intentionally wanted such to be based more off of their itemization (lots of mp/5 on supports).

The down side, however... is that this is all heavily altered since they changed the itemization values; one of the key components, Fiendish Codex, just had the mp/5 removed from it, which alters all of these values significantly. This means that the champion would not have nearly as much mana early on in the game, which is problematic.

Yeu'll note, however, that the estimates are based on the assumption of maximum mana, estimated net drain per second, and how long that will take to run out, to a pre-determined preferred rate of running dry.

This also specifically only was figured out until the point that the character would be likely able to afford a Chalice, at which point mana becomes more or less a moot point if yeu have any respectable amount of mana regen without the item at that point.

So... to answer yeur question, uhm... yeu wouldn't normally just figure out the mana cost of a single ability. Sion has two AP abilities, and if he's going AP, he's going to spam only those two. Ultimates have a long enough cooldown that they can normally be discounted from drain per second estimations (normally; some have really short cooldowns), and the estimation for those ultimates then becomes just how low yeu expect the champion to be running (some champions like Sona will run on fumes constantly, because she can spam as often as she wants, pretty much, while others will be often hovering around 50%, so might need a more expensive ultimate for the mana cost to matter at all in their total burst combo).

More than anything, consider the purpose of the champion, and also consider a total burst. In my case, I wasn't really looking at burst capacity as it wasn't that important on this particular design due to not being a burst caster, so not needing to figure out how much mana a full combo would cost.

If yeu were making a champion like Ahri, yeu'd need to figure out the cost of using every ability she has (probably including a second cast of foxfire if using a high CDR build), because without that much mana, she can't execute the full combo and is far less likely to acquire her kill.

As such, no, there's no easy answer, sorries =P

As I said back in the section on mana, mana is the hardest of all of the resources to balance. It's easy to just add mana, and assume the champion has access to all the items / masteries in the game (that max mana and mp/5 ones aren't dead weight to them), but it's a ton of extra work to figure out how quickly drains occur.

For someone with fury or energy, not to mention others with custom tailored resources like heat or ferocity, it's significantly easier as the value doesn't go up or down with level, nor does the rate of regen change (much; there's typically some variation for energy users).

Honestly, this is only useful for absolute top end theorycrafting before adding it to a test model. The test model is almost guaranteed to show mistakes or errors in judgement, and will need to be overhauled. Players will build different items than expected, select different spells than expected, and spam more or less often than expected, meaning yeu'll never get it quite right. The closest yeu can do is guess using as many references of information as possible.

In short, don't worry too much if the mana costs are a little bit off, they always will be =P

That being said, consider the various factors when trying to predict whot would be a good mana cost. Also, note SPECIFICALLY that the strength of an ability really has very little to do with it's mana cost! Far too many people just make an ability overpowered (double damage we'll say) and increase the mana cost to compensate (double mana clearly makes it fair! ).

The entire package deal of the whole champion combined has to be taken into account, and balance isn't obtained by trying to add downsides to an ability that's too strong, especially if those downsides can be mitigated or removed entirely (chalice/grail).

Anyway, I hope this helps! ^.^


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Gaarstyn

Junior Member

02-07-2013

Hate to make you go to all that work fo nothin, but I decided it would fit better if I made my own resource system


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Zarkran

Senior Member

02-07-2013

Bump this, because people need to freaking read this, or at least parts of it before trying to throw together a champion..


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Kronikmagii

Senior Member

02-09-2013

I respect what you just went through to try and help us make better champ concepts..but this is like reading the Bible.