Champion Creation Tips v3

First Riot Post
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ploki122

Senior Member

11-28-2012

necro this terrifyingly useful thread!


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Katsuni

Senior Member

12-03-2012

A tiny bit concerned; though it's stickied on the front page, since I've started poking my nose back in this forum, I've noticed quite a few people being confused on where to go for help.

As I understand it, the council is making a compilation of guides, so that's good, but until then I'll bump this a bit so that people don't get confused until they have a more stable set of information to work with.


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ploki122

Senior Member

12-03-2012

I honestly don't think the problem is the accessibility of the guides... If we take, for example, the PBE, lots of peoples posts to ask about why it isn't up when there are already countless ways of finding out it's being patched...


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Katsuni

Senior Member

12-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ploki122 View Post
I honestly don't think the problem is the accessibility of the guides... If we take, for example, the PBE, lots of peoples posts to ask about why it isn't up when there are already countless ways of finding out it's being patched...
There's ways to find it, but the people who need help the most are the ones too lazy to go looking for it, or aren't really sure where to begin since they're completely new, aren't going to know these methods or use them.

Now, admittedly, these same individuals probably won't sit through a 50post wall of text like this one, either XD

Still, I'd rather it be clearly available for those who didn't notice it existed. It's their choice to read it or not, but they first need to know it exists =3


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Katsuni

Senior Member

12-06-2012

Rawr, had to link this earlier for a discussion in GD. Figure I may as well bump it while I'm here XD


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BergMeister

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Senior Member

12-06-2012

KATSUNI i broke a rule but fixed it at the same time, I made a invoker like champion, in fact a champion with 15 total abilities if you count them. but you can only use 3 per use. :P


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blackkat101

Senior Member

12-07-2012

Why? Why!? Why!?!

Why did I read this all in one sitting? It's now 2.5 hours since I started reading this and it is now 5am.

It was a very good read. I wonder how my champion, Shia: The Void's Timid Doppel, would have turned out differently if I had read this first. With how knowledgeable you seem to be on the this subject, would you be willing to take a look at my champion and letting me know your thoughts?

Now all I have to do is see how well I retain what I just read....

....will need to bookmark for reference.




- Kat


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Katsuni

Senior Member

12-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by BergMeister View Post
KATSUNI i broke a rule but fixed it at the same time, I made a invoker like champion, in fact a champion with 15 total abilities if you count them. but you can only use 3 per use. :P
As stated, rules are breakable in some cases. Invoker style champions are generally a bad idea, but can theoretically be done in some cases...

There's a lot of problems with having too many abilities, though. First and foremost, is trying to select which one yeu want to cast quickly and efficiently. Next off is making it so that there's actually a reason to have that many abilities. Another issue is ensuring that yeu don't give the champion so many abilities that they become overpowered by being able to do "too much". Yet another one, still, is making it reasonably plausible for the player to actually remember whot all the spells do.

The closest attempt I ever made to the invoker, was a WoW-esque shaman with a bunch of different totems; the idea was that each totem grouping would have more or less the same effects, but a different special ability attached to such, so a fire totem might shoot fire bolts like a hiemer turret but apply a burn damage DoT, while the ice variant would work almost identical in effect, but would apply a movement slow, the earth variant would deal higher base damage but fire slower and reduce physical damage on hit, and the air one would fire more quickly and slow attack speeds on hit.

The concept still was problematic in that it still took too much effort to switch between the various elemental totem groupings, and it was very clunky in combat to cast anything. On the plus side, it bypassed the issues of trying to remember whot all the totems did, since there were only 4 totems per element (this was back in the days of DotA 1, so there were 6 spell slots to use instead of 4), and each particular totem was basically a variation on a theme, so yeu only had to actually remember the 4 spells + 4 variant elements.

In any case, I still consider the attempt I made a failure, because it still didn't work in combat any better than the invoker; invoker has an issue that yeu have to remember a remarkably large range of spell button combinations, it's too easy to miscast in combat, there's no reasonable way for people to remember all those spells when they can't even see them all without casting them, and most of the spells are dead weight and flat out BAD, they just exist for taking up space to confuse people.

Still, as stated, it's possible to break a rule if yeu understand it inside out, just keep in mind that invoker-style champions are loaded with tons of high end, complex problems to solve, and fixing one tends to break two more in the process, making it near impossible to truly make one work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackkat101 View Post
Why? Why!? Why!?!

Why did I read this all in one sitting? It's now 2.5 hours since I started reading this and it is now 5am.
The evidence suggests yeu were a victim of "just one more level" syndrome =P
Quote:
It was a very good read. I wonder how my champion, Shia: The Void's Timid Doppel, would have turned out differently if I had read this first. With how knowledgeable you seem to be on the this subject, would you be willing to take a look at my champion and letting me know your thoughts?
As stated, there's always room for revisions. Yeu could always just go back and remake them, after all, with newfound knowledge, and just keep the older version as a reminder =3

Anyway, I'm rather busy these days, but if yeu'd really, really like me to, I could probably do a full on review. Warning: my reviews take about 2-3 hours to write, and are as in depth in scope as any of the sections of this guide. This is a large part of why I don't do them very often anymore =P

That would mean that, if I go through the trouble to pick the champion apart and give yeu thoughts on where to work on, I'd expect yeu to actually put the same level of effort into fixing them up. That doesn't mean I'd expect yeu to follow any particular advice I give (all a reviewer can provide is opinions; it's up to the designer to decide whot they want to keep and whot they want to throw out), but it does mean I'd want yeu to think over whot was said and actually try to implement fixes, or at the very least, have explanation for why yeu did something a certain way and feel it's good enough to leave it that way.

As such, if yeu're willing to blow a few more hours on yeur champion design to tweak and patch it up with a major overhaul (which it'll probably need), then I'm willing to work with yeu to help make it that much more awesome. I just don't appreciate the common trend around here of blowing hours into helping someone and then they don't do anything with it. I don't expect yeu to follow everything I say to the letter (in fact, I actively discourage that), but I'd expect yeu to at least be attempting to better yeur design in the first place, rather than just asking for someone to go "yay, it's awesome".

My reviews aren't there to pad yeur ego, it's to let yeu know whot yeu did right and wrong so yeu can know where to improve =3

Anyway, if yeu're still interested, lemme know.
Quote:
Now all I have to do is see how well I retain what I just read....

....will need to bookmark for reference.
Yarr, the chances are yeu probably won't remember all of it. Even I don't, and I wrote it! It's a ton of information and I find I have to wander back and brush up on stuff I've forgotten about or just haven't thought of in awhile now and then. It's as much a tool of reference for myself, as it is for others.

I'm working on an MCCC(P!) champion concept this month for the contest, and trust me, I'm going back and reviewing my own guide to doublecheck that I didn't forget anything important (which I probably did, I have a terribad memory =P ). Fortunately, it's written down, and moderately well organized, which lets me go back and check for particular issues or problems I'm having, or to verify specific information on a topic.

To that end, it's helpful to be able to go back and check it again. I just don't suggest doing it all in one sitting again ^.~


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blackkat101

Senior Member

12-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katsuni
Anyway, I'm rather busy these days, but if yeu'd really, really like me to, I could probably do a full on review. Warning: my reviews take about 2-3 hours to write, and are as in depth in scope as any of the sections of this guide. This is a large part of why I don't do them very often anymore =P
I would very much appreciate it if you find the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katsuni
My reviews aren't there to pad yeur ego, it's to let yeu know whot yeu did right and wrong so yeu can know where to improve =3
That is perfectly fine. While I do tend to have much pride in my work, I'm a bit of a pessimist in that I always think something is wrong or could be fixed unless someone else says otherwise.

If you take a look at the posts after the concept, I've had a couple of long conversations with two acquaintances of mine as well as Wulffe and Moby the White have graciously given me feedback already. I have made changes from where my champion started, though I did what I could to stay true to what the original idea was.

Included on my champion concept page is two earlier versions of her in PDF form as well if you wanted to see how Shia changed through her development.

Through my posts after the concept, I've attempted my best not to do any silly self bumping and only posted in response to other with hopefully a handful of information. Some even have pictures to better describe what I was going for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katsuni
As such, if yeu're willing to blow a few more hours on yeur champion design to tweak and patch it up with a major overhaul (which it'll probably need), then I'm willing to work with yeu to help make it that much more awesome. I just don't appreciate the common trend around here of blowing hours into helping someone and then they don't do anything with it. I don't expect yeu to follow everything I say to the letter (in fact, I actively discourage that), but I'd expect yeu to at least be attempting to better yeur design in the first place, rather than just asking for someone to go "yay, it's awesome".
Completely understandable. No one wants to spend hours of work only to have someone completely ignore what you wrote. I'm always looking to improve and as I've already now spent over 40 hours working on Shia, I'm sure I'd be willing to spend many hours more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katsuni
I'm working on an MCCC(P!) champion concept this month for the contest
Didn't even know such contests existed. I just looked it up and it sounds like fun. I'll have to pass myself on making a champion for it as I'm spending way to much time working on Shia (I'm a little one track minded). I've actually never been on the Player Concept section of the forums before last week (didn't even know there was one), so I don't know if there is a similar champion to Shia made before. She was just my first idea for a champion and I ran with it. Looking at your tips here, thankfully it seems I did many of the things naturally on my own (and of course many things you listed I had not even considered).



Well, here's to hoping you at least have the time to look at Shia: The Void's Timid Doppel, and if you find the time, do a review/critique so I may further improve her.



Thank you for your time,
- Kat


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BergMeister

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-07-2012

Actually, while im at it, If you are willing Katsuni, I would be honored if you would take the time to look over this champion I was talking about, I'm open for harsh criticism, I want my champion to be the best it can be, and people sugar coating their reviews detracts from that goal. If you don't have the time I understand.

Swarm of the Void