Jarvan IV - OP support

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foxfire100

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Normally when I make threads (or post in them) I flood them with logic and math and it gets so long people get bored. So I'll try to cut to the chase here.

Jarvan IV's moves are as follows:

Q - Deals damage, increases damage done by ADC's, and can optionally be a Leona-esque pull (complete with knock-up)
W - Shields Jarvan and slows enemies
E - Grants attack speed and armor (anti-ADC) to all near-by champions
R - Prevents enemies from escaping

When you look at not his stats but the effects of his abilities, Jarvan IV can be played like a Blitzcrank or Leona support. He buffs his ADC (lower enemy armor, increase friendly attack speed, increase friendly armor), he has CC (knock-ups and slows), and he can trap enemies for ganks and kills. Not to mention like a good Blitz or Leona he can build tanky and take turret hits to aide his carry in a dive.

Now the issue... Riot didn't see Jarvan IV as a support. They saw him as a bruiser. Relative to a champion like Leona he has:

+ More attack speed
+ Bonus auto-attack damage (from his passive)
+ Higher attack damage per level
+ Higher movement speed
+ Longer range
+ Higher ratios
+ A real shield (not bonus armor/MR)

This means a support Jarvan can drop enough damage to 2v1 in the absence of his ADC while still tanking and buffing like a boss. Riot's buffs and nerfs really need to look at champions as a whole, not how they are played in the meta. It's this kind of meta-thinking that led Eve to go from a relatively ok jungler to an OP mid-lane.

I suggest Jarvan IV be re-thought with the consideration that he could be played as a perfectly viable support and in this position needs to be significantly less ridiculous. One change I propose that would necessitate a few minor tweaks but would fix 90% of his balance issues: If you use his Q to jump to demacian standard, the demacian standard should be removed and no longer grant its attack speed and armor buff to nearby team mates. This way he has to choose between offering a buff or getting a dash/knock-up instead of getting both.


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Ansaa

Member

02-01-2013

Hey. Play him again right now: His dash/knockup duration is a lot shorter now.

Yaaaaaay.......... ANOTHER J4 bug.


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Acanthus

Senior Member

02-01-2013

LET'S NERF EVERYTHING SO THEY CAN'T BE OP SUPPORTS.

Dude, come on. If he's not getting gold from cs, he's going to wear out his mana so fast and be feeding by mid-game because he's not as naturally strong or naturally tanky as other bruisers. You'd also be able to see his e/q combo coming if you ward the bushes.


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foxfire100

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HereticSage View Post
LET'S NERF EVERYTHING SO THEY CAN'T BE OP SUPPORTS.

Dude, come on. If he's not getting gold from cs, he's going to wear out his mana so fast and be feeding by mid-game because he's not as naturally strong or naturally tanky as other bruisers. You'd also be able to see his e/q combo coming if you ward the bushes.
First, I never said "let's nerf everything". I said let's consider re-balancing Jarvan so he's fair in all roles, not just one. And I specifically suggested one fix: when he dashes to his standard the standard should be picked up and no longer grants its buff to team mates. This way he has to choose between the dash/knock-up/armor reduction or an attack speed buff/armor buff. As it is, he gets all five.

Second, supports get plenty of gold without CS. Support masteries grant more starting gold, runes and masteries can give more gold per second, you can buy gold items (philos stone will give him gold AND mana regen), and with pick pocket you can harass and keep getting gold. So gold isn't an issue.

Third, if you have mana issues by mid-game then you don't know how to build. Does Blitz have mana issues late game? No, but it's because he doesn't build like normal supports. He get a catalyst, a tear, etc. I played Jarvan IV as a support earlier and the instant I started having mana issues I bought a chalice. This helped me tank mid-game (when the laning phase was over and we were fighting the enemy AP carry) and I never had mana issues again.

Fourth, he IS as naturally strong/tanky as other bruisers. His base stats don't reflect it because he gets passive armor from his demacian standard which is doubled by the aura granted when it's active. He's just as tanky as Fiora, Gangplank, Renekton, etc.

Fifth, you don't just stand in a bush and troll with his e/q like Blitzcranks do. Because unlike a Blitzcrank arm where you try to surprise them from a bush, his e/q can go through minion waves. Therefore you can stand out in front of your adc in broad daylight and if they come within range you've got them. It's essentially a zoning tool. Let them ward the bushes all day long, if they want to get that last-hit they need to move in range of your knock-up / armor reducer / dash / attack speed buff / armor buff.

Did I mention his standard gives vision? It's great for checking bushes when you're out of wards.


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Jonheath291

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Jarvan is fine right where he is. How about we stop asking riot to nerf everything we don't feel like adjusting our play style for..


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foxfire100

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonheath291 View Post
Jarvan is fine right where he is. How about we stop asking riot to nerf everything we don't feel like adjusting our play style for..
I never said nerf... I said "re-think". I don't want to see his stats decreased because that would make him a non-viable top, and he's obviously perfectly balanced up top. In a solo lane. The issue is that when coupled with a physical damage carry and against a physical damage carry the aura nature of his demacian standard causes excessive damage and tankiness. So rather than a massive nerf, I wanted to discuss other options of keeping him equally viable top while making him a less devastating support.


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Acanthus

Senior Member

02-01-2013

There are no changes that wouldn't affect his viability top. It's sort of like when people complain about fiddles as a support. Yeah, he's strong because he's not meant for the role, so early on, his damage is going to be annoying, and the fear is going to affect things when it's leveled first. Jarvan will be the same, trading late game power for early game power, and will ultimately fall flat in higher levels of play because his kit requires him to get into the middle of the fray.


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Nexttoradio

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Lets compare J4 with Taric and other supports, shall we?

+ More attack speed - Taric gives attack damage and ap with his low-Cd ult
+ Bonus auto-attack damage (from his passive) - once every couple seconds only. lulu gets the same thing, so does thresh, and they are both ranged.
+ Higher attack damage per level - So what? You don't sit around auto-attacking all day and you are melee unlike other supports that have range.
+ Higher movement speed - taric's speed is identical
+ Longer range - um, yes, but then again look at lulu.
+ Higher ratios - Ratio's hardly matter on supports base values are far more important
+ A real shield (not bonus armor/MR) - The shield is selfish providing no sustain for your adc, unlike almost every other support.

Also taric provides armor shread just like J4, and it's more potent early in the game, though worse later.

J4 is extremely vulnerable to harassing supports like Lulu, Sona, (both of which are very common these days) Nidalee, even soraka is capable of harassing him. Lux is just mean to him, and caitlyn traps are good deterances to him as well.

There's nothing wrong with J4 as he is.


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Unwardil

Member

02-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexttoradio View Post

J4 is extremely vulnerable to harassing supports like Lulu, Sona, (both of which are very common these days) Nidalee, even soraka is capable of harassing him. Lux is just mean to him, and caitlyn traps are good deterances to him as well.

That is clearly the comments of someone who has never played J4 support or had to lane against it. I pick J4 as support specifically to counter those things and as long as my adc is someone who can keep up with me, it works.

Cause the thing is, the e/q combo has quite a good range on it and if they ever come in for harras, I simply jump on their face and shred off half their hp. If I have an EZ or Vayne to lane with, they can dive in with me to continue the now very one sided fight and if they're a long range pokey type like Ashe or Caitlin, they can give me covering fire for retreat and we inevitably just force the other pair out of the lane.

All the same, it's perfectly well balanced, if I want to built those powerful aura items, I need to eshew all the damage from my build. No armor pen or damage runes, only gp runes cause I have no use for most of the gold producing items. What does J4 need with ap?!


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LeBIink

Senior Member

04-20-2013

J4 is my main, and fav support. His not in the meta, which is one of the reason I like him, and he is the first champ that inspires me to play support.

Mana? Not a problem, u run utility mastery, that gives u some help, and charm gives u some regen as well. Of course, if you spam ur skills, then you have problem like any other support.

No cs, his useless with out it! Well, his not, he has 3 cc and 1 adc buff and a skill shot debuff. Due to recent nerf, his flag now grants his adc AS (armor buff removed T_T), which is good. It also act as an temp long range ward, so you will never need to face check. Q+E is a free knock up or just mobility (over wall etc), well you need to practice you Q+E, but when E is down, your enemy will be cautions about you Qing as well, not to mention the armor shred with Q. W is AoE slow, but also a shield, this allows you to not die as often as a support (ignite? shield, over time damage? shield, ult in? shield.) AoE slow is also a nice gap closer if you don't wanna waste ult on like a 50% hp enemy. R, man my fav feature for J4. This ult is dangerous, for both your teamate and enemy, so you need to consider your moves really cautionsly. If execute properly, gg for champs that lost flash or have no over wall skills, but more importantly, I use this to trap multiple enemies (one is sort of waste unless it's a fed bruiser, who will be worth trapping), u might risk your own death, but let's just hope it will be worth it or if u have e q left, get out!

Now let's talk about tanky problem. There is no way wat so ever he will be tanky as jungle J4 unless ur team is fed, so let's assume a 50 50 team game. Ur priority is wards, but you don't farm, so u need philoso for regens and gp 10, like many other supports. mercury tread is the difference between J4 support an others where others will go for cdr (most of them). J4 needs to initiate, and not die, protect adc. Aegis(Runic), like other supports (taric style :P) will grant nice aura and self tankyness. Shurelya's also grant you more hp (cdr as well, and better initiate with active).

The biggest issue i heard is the healing problem, but seriously, not all supports heal. Like blitz, he provides 3 forms of cc (grab stun, knock up, AoE silent), with a speed up for offensive or defensive use. J4 has knock up as well, harder ofcourse, He has AoE "snare" and slow. But he has armor debuff and AS buff, as well has free flag ward, so he is no less than Blitz. If you compare him to like a naturally tanky support like taric, well his cc stronger than taric, he also has a buff to adc, so maybe a little bit worse, but still suit as support.


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