We should start at 0 ELO rather than 1200.

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Eggroll9000

Senior Member

05-18-2012

Cool! I just found a EU thread with the exact same argument.

http://euw.leagueoflegends.com/board...d.php?t=573156


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Selcopa

Senior Member

05-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eggroll9000 View Post
No system is going to eliminate all trolls to the perfect utopia of gamer heaven and I'm not trying to achieve that with this idea.
And im saying your system does not improve on the current system, and if anything, makes the system worse
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If you're a great player since day one and initiated your climb immediately from 1200, then you do not experience this issue as much as those that need to make the climb all the way from 500 or so.
Not true, and i know this because I also have access to a 400 elo account, nothing they do affects my play and holds me back, following the incorrect decisions of your teammates is probably one of the reasons you struggled to start
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The fact is most people go downwards when they first start, including me.
This is not a fact, you made this up
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But once the climbing starts, you find yourself teamed up with people on their way down. An illustration of this exact same idea would be if tommorow, all new ranked players started at 2500 instead of 1200.
Still happens at all elos, in the 1500s i had formers 1700s on their way down which means they've had over 200 points worth of being overrated, this problem is not exclusive to the 1200s and wouldnt be exclusive to the 0 ELO in your system
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You would in your 1900 elo world then be bombarded with overrated players on their way down. This is the core problem of this entire thread. Not amazing skills, not trolling, not masterful carrying. You simply are matched with overrated players constantly at 900-1200 and you take their elo hit along with them.
VERY WRONG. This is a statistical shortsight, there is a higher chance of the bad player(s) being on the enemy team than mine and I should be able to capitalize on their mistakes if they are on the other team. In fact I wouldnt go down i would more likely go up
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But if you start at 0, and you reach 600. The chances you're matched with someone that's played less than 50 ranked games is 0. If at 1200, you know everyone on your team has played at least 100 games. The chances they are total noobs are virtually none. Now can some idiot still troll at 1200, 1400, 1600, 2000? Yes. We even watch them on YouTube!! But do we by design place overrated players all over the elo demeaning their value? No. At least your chances of playing someone with less than 100 wins in 1200 is 0. It solves an important part of the ELO hell issue of fresh noobs put into your queue after you have 200 wins and they have 5.
You miss the part where players gain elo via 1 role or 1 champion(phantomlord anyone?) Which happens very frequently, then they get forced into a different role and guess what, total noob, this happens very often especially the higher you get as people start tending to specialize in one role, and when that role gets taken from them, they play terrible.

You have yet to convince me(and probably anyone except elo hell babies) why 0 is a better start point than 1200


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Snowpoint

Member

05-19-2012

Since this is more of a 'solution' only with allegorical evidence, I figure that I'd add some insight based on my current project.

I'm gathering data based on the premise that is isn't simply that you have a single player on their way down, but that the matchmaking actually can group you with several of them at once. Only 40 games into my record keeping, but thus far every game where a team has 2 members MORE than the opponent with 25 wins or fewer has lost, usually quite badly. When there is only 1 more, the rate is very noticeable, but only twice (~10%) has the team with more low win members won. Also, I've had a 50% win rate with 'even' teams in the matter of low win total allies.

In a month or more, I hope to have enough data to make a far more thorough post so as to merit a red response and hopefully an adjustment to the matchmaking process.


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Swooshter

Senior Member

05-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selcopa View Post
VERY WRONG. This is a statistical shortsight, there is a higher chance of the bad player(s) being on the enemy team than mine and I should be able to capitalize on their mistakes if they are on the other team. In fact I wouldnt go down i would more likely go up
Talk about statistical shortsight. How is there a higher chance of the bad player being on the enemy team then yours? Are you magically immune to getting a bad player on your team? Maybe if you are playing in a premade, I can understand that, in which case this elo hell situation does not apply to you since you are less affected by bad/new players.

I do not consider myself a bad player anymore (I may not be as great as some, but I have learned). Last season I got lucky and had good groups and easily got to near 1400 elo with only 20 games played (50/50 win/loss). This season, I did not play as much early on and was still learning which champs were good for me. As a result, I did have lots of bad games. The past few months however, I have been trying to get out of elo hell. But it does not matter if I can go 15/3 in a match if the rest of my group are new players that just do not understand basic mechanics of play (ie, how to pick champs or how to counter pick).

*******http://tinypic.com/r/qovmgx/6********

Take this lovely situation that happened about a month ago. I was early pick and stated I was going mid with malz. Vlad picked for top and the rest of the guys just seemed to want to troll with all ap.


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Selcopa

Senior Member

05-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swooshter View Post
Talk about statistical shortsight. How is there a higher chance of the bad player being on the enemy team then yours? Are you magically immune to getting a bad player on your team? Maybe if you are playing in a premade, I can understand that, in which case this elo hell situation does not apply to you since you are less affected by bad/new players.
Are you sure you want to commit to this? Like this is where you are going to make your stand, you've looked over the data, done some testing, and you've decided that you know what, this is where I make my case, clearly this is the weakest part of the argument .

I just want to make sure that you've given this question you've presented to me the proper amount of brain power necessary to come to a reasonable conclusion, and if you are still stuck with the answer you posted, i'll do everything I can to help you see it properly. Good to go? Okay.

At any given elo there is a pool of players we will call trolls, how they troll is irrelevant, but its safe to say that if they are on your team, they will cause the game to be a loss for whichever team they are on. Still with me on this.

Now, a League of Legends Ranked Solo/Duo Queue is comprised of 2 teams each with 5 players, now we are assuming that you are playing in the game, and because you are only able to be on one team at a time, it means that you can only take up 1 slot.

Now this is where I can see you missing a number, because you are player number 1 we'll say, it means there are only 4 other slots for your team. Where as the enemy team has 5 slots to fill, now because we accept that there are trolls, and that every slot has an equal chance of having a troll and having not a troll.

So if their is 4 available slots for a troll on your team, and 5 slots for the enemy team to have a troll, statistically, who will have more trolls?

If you are still having trouble I can draw a graph if you'd like.

Quote:
I do not consider myself a bad player anymore (I may not be as great as some, but I have learned). Last season I got lucky and had good groups and easily got to near 1400 elo with only 20 games played (50/50 win/loss). This season, I did not play as much early on and was still learning which champs were good for me. As a result, I did have lots of bad games. The past few months however, I have been trying to get out of elo hell. But it does not matter if I can go 15/3 in a match if the rest of my group are new players that just do not understand basic mechanics of play (ie, how to pick champs or how to counter pick).

Take this lovely situation that happened about a month ago. I was early pick and stated I was going mid with malz. Vlad picked for top and the rest of the guys just seemed to want to troll with all ap.
And Like i've said at least 50 times on this forum, show me a replay of you playing 'good' and your team failing causing the loss, and ill find 10-20 errors in it that had you fixed half of them, you probably could have won that game. I offer it to alot of people but no one seems to actually have a replay that proves me wrong.


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Swooshter

Senior Member

05-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selcopa View Post
And Like i've said at least 50 times on this forum, show me a replay of you playing 'good' and your team failing causing the loss, and ill find 10-20 errors in it that had you fixed half of them, you probably could have won that game. I offer it to alot of people but no one seems to actually have a replay that proves me wrong.
If there were a way to record games in game, I would be more than willing to show you a replay. But until Riot builds that into the game, there is no way that is gonna happen. If I am blind, please tell me where the record/replay info is in the game (not planning on dling a 3rd party app, sorry).


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Selcopa

Senior Member

05-20-2012

LoLReplay.

Also please respond to the other part of the post about how you were calling me wrong for saying that the enemy team will have trolls on their team more often than you will on your team


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HornyGundam

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Senior Member

05-20-2012

There is no such thing as elo hell, if you get stuck in a certain elo it means you belong there..


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The Dust Bowl

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Junior Member

05-20-2012

I was just wondering not to be mean, but does anybody know how elo works. Its kind of like gambling every game you ante in an amount based on your ranking and your opponents ranking and if you win you earn it back and their portion. But lets say you are playing poker you dont start with 0 dollars you cant build up from there and since there would be no money in the game nobody would ever move up. Unless you go into negatives thats the only way it works, but that would just be the exact same thing but 1200 elo lower.


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Swooshter

Senior Member

05-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dust Bowl View Post
I was just wondering not to be mean, but does anybody know how elo works. Its kind of like gambling every game you ante in an amount based on your ranking and your opponents ranking and if you win you earn it back and their portion. But lets say you are playing poker you dont start with 0 dollars you cant build up from there and since there would be no money in the game nobody would ever move up. Unless you go into negatives thats the only way it works, but that would just be the exact same thing but 1200 elo lower.
Again though, just like chess, poker makes sense in that way because it is a single player game (yes, I realize you can play multiple opponents at a time). In other words, in a single player type of game, your loss and wins are 100% based off your own skill vs your opponents skill. In this game, there are 4 other players that are on your team. Even if you are an all star player, you still risk losing because of all the previous listed reasons. Go back to the Michael Jordan comparison. The Bulls didnt win all those games just because MJ was on the team. They won them because they had a good overall team. If you look at MJ's record and stats, he has been pretty consistent over the times he has played. Yet despite him being the all star player he is, he couldnt carry the rest of the team when I went to the Wizards.

If my elo was based on my performance in the game instead of if my team won or lost, then maybe you would have a valid point. MJ's early and last couple of years were still good as a player, but the team did not do as well. He isnt considered a good player because the Bulls won, he is a good player because he has good stats.


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