AP Koggie: Semi-viable, or hopeless pipe dream?

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Reynmaker

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Senior Member

04-28-2012

AP kog, real strong, but it just doesn't feel like you do much early game and in Dominion , you kinda need to hit the ground running. I would try it in an ARAB though....


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GrignardTS

Senior Member

05-04-2012

I've played this build in about 5 Dominion matches:

mpen mark
mp5/level seal
mpen glyph
mpen quint

21-0-9

Start Cataylst + Pot
Sorcerer's Shoes
Fiendish Codex
Glacial Shroud

Then I adapt my build. Finishing Odin's, Frozen Heart, Haunting Guise/Void Staff, and Morello's

I pick up a late Rylai's if I have time.

Granted, I'm always skeptical when talking about the viability of a champion in such a small number of matches, especially since I'm only in the ~1600 ELO range, but based on my level of play in comparison with my performance I'd say he's viable.

Granted, he's viable now. Once new Chalice drops I can replace Odins with that and have Rylai's be my HP instead. That will make him much stronger.

I tried Tear in 2-3 games and hated it. Way too squishy at start, tear would only reach 50% full even with spam, and overall I felt it not make much of an impact. Catalyst is far superior.

I was always focused down first in team fights. But since I was sporting MUCH higher HP, Armor, and MR than AD, AS/onhit Kog I felt this was OK.

If you have a HARD tank like Naut or Leona, he's kind of nuts actually. You're only -ok- from 6-10, but once you start ramping and hit rank 2 on your ultimate, your poke is better than Nidalee. Better than Nidalee. Better. Than. Nidalee.

Your range is insane and you just plan zone people. Once you start leading and hitting maybe 60-70% of your ultimate pop's, people will be paying attention.

If you reach your rank 3 ultimate....you're nuts. Simple.


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Warrrrax

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Senior Member

05-04-2012

That seems like a reasonable strategy. I think the key is knowing that you really can't boost your Ults damage all that much by pure AP. (0.3 ratio that is NOT multiplied by 2.5 vs champs).

So instead of rushing Deathcap, etc, you focus on ensuring you can spam it as quickly and much as possible, AND making sure that you penetrate magic resistance. And not dying. That's always a bonus. :-)


Question: Is it possible to use CDR to improve your Ult spammage? At 16 its 1 second right? Is that the minimum possible? (like hecarum at 25% CDR), or can it be improved?


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Foofm

Senior Member

05-04-2012

You really don't need to build much survivability on AP kog unless the other team has a few troublesome champs. You can easily stay out of range and harass, and watching minimap and estimating positions should prevent you from dying much at all. Just be aware.

In fact, I'd say everyone suggesting to build tanky items doesn't know how to AP kog. You should be trying to get your skill up to the point where you don't die because you never get hit because of your uber long range. If you find yourself getting beat on, you aren't playing right.


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Degnared

Senior Member

05-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrrrax View Post
That seems like a reasonable strategy. I think the key is knowing that you really can't boost your Ults damage all that much by pure AP. (0.3 ratio that is NOT multiplied by 2.5 vs champs).

So instead of rushing Deathcap, etc, you focus on ensuring you can spam it as quickly and much as possible, AND making sure that you penetrate magic resistance. And not dying. That's always a bonus. :-)


Question: Is it possible to use CDR to improve your Ult spammage? At 16 its 1 second right? Is that the minimum possible? (like hecarum at 25% CDR), or can it be improved?
His ult can, in fact, be improved to 0.6 sec CD with max CDR at level 16. So, as you said, CDR and Mpen should be top priorities.

So while I'm withdrawing my support from the AA staff stacking that I originally suggested, I think that people underestimate AP on Kog. With that same 0.6 sec speed, 1 point of AP will deal (0.3 AP / 0.6 sec) = 0.5 AP per second. Compare that to a 1.0 AP skill on a 3.6 sec cooldown (Nunu's Iceblast at max CDR), and you only get (1.0 AP / 3.6 sec) = 0.2777 per second.

Now, you obviously won't hit every ult, but it does AoE damage, has a CRAZY range, and you will hit a good percentage of them in a teamfight with cc flying around. And don't forget that you have three other skills that also have decent AP scaling. So I think think that an Archangel's staff is a good investment. I also think that building pretty squishy (maybe getting a Glacial Shroud/Frozen Heat, because it's so **** good) is the only way to play him, since he's actually SAFER than as/onhit or AD kog.

Oh, and one other thing to be said about stacking AP: I can't think of another champ that can explode a squishy, then do it again seven second later.


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GrignardTS

Senior Member

05-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foofm View Post
In fact, I'd say everyone suggesting to build tanky items doesn't know how to AP kog. You should be trying to get your skill up to the point where you don't die because you never get hit because of your uber long range. If you find yourself getting beat on, you aren't playing right.
I definitely don't think i play him very well. However, lots of tank items give him the utility he needs. Glacial Shroud is amazing, the new Chalice will fit perfectly, and Rylais is just great with your ultimate.


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Volandum

Senior Member

05-05-2012

Grignard: I wouldn't build Morello's. For one thing, I'm surprised you don't max cdr with just FH. Consider Sweeper, it lets you ooze-check (or use the active on) bushes which is a bit more reliable than ult-checking them. For another, if you are in range to use your full combo you're well in auto range, and Nashor's is vastly more cost efffective. EDIT: Chalice would probably replace your 2nd cdr item more than Odyn's.

I have no problem filling tear. Building tear gives you a ton of build flexibility - if you need the bulk of a tank build you can go into that, if you don't you can build support/utility items and help your team out nicely. I find this does more good than just trying to add more damage output. Now if I only understood how to use Shurelya's it would be good.

I also don't get much out of Rylai's. If you want to kite and hold people in position to land ults Mallet does a lot better at that.

Degnared; you have about 10K gold for a normal build. Sorcs and FH will take 4K of that. Void Staff another 2K, leaving you with just one AAS. That's not a bad buy, but if there are AP assassins wandering I definitely want that Odyn's. If you don't have 20% CDR from runes + masteries you'll probably not finish the AAS.


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Brycearoni

Member

05-05-2012

AP Kog has a poor early game but his late game is unfathomably powerful. Raba + Arch + Rylais = ultultult dead.


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konfetarius

Senior Member

05-05-2012

Quote:
In fact, I'd say everyone suggesting to build tanky items doesn't know how to AP kog. You should be trying to get your skill up to the point where you don't die because you never get hit because of your uber long range. If you find yourself getting beat on, you aren't playing right.
On the contrary, if you can stay out of everyone's range, you are playing against incredibly bad people.


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Foofm

Senior Member

05-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by konfetarius View Post
On the contrary, if you can stay out of everyone's range, you are playing against incredibly bad people.
How so? You're freakin Kog'Maw. And the vast majority of your damage if coming through one of the longest, if not the longest, ranged pokes in the game.

I totally disagree. If you can't zone and kite as AP kog, you are doing it wrong. Hes one of the easiest champs to keep your distance with.

My point still stands, if you are building tanky, you are doing it wrong. The whole point of playing AP kogmaw is to abuse your R, its long range, and its short cooldown. If you find yourself constantly being attacked, you need to work on your map awareness and kiting abilities.