AP Koggie: Semi-viable, or hopeless pipe dream?

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Volandum

Senior Member

04-27-2012

AD is generally more expensive than AP, but NOT on Manamune.

If you have 700 AP on Kog you're total squish, you die about 300% faster for only 50% extra damage output, and that only reached very, very late. Very few mages can afford to be total squish on dominion, and kog, having no escapes, is not one of them.

EDIT: If you want to go hybrid on offensive AP Kog then the next stat to work on is not AD, it's AS. You have mpen, you have extra mr reduction from your q, and you have a very strong on-hit now you've built AP.


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GrignardTS

Senior Member

04-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volandum View Post
If you have 700 AP on Kog you're total squish, you die about 300% faster for only 50% extra damage output. Very few mages can afford to be total squish on dominion, and kog, having no escapes, is not one of them.
With 2200 max range on his spammable ult, I would say he is.


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konfetarius

Senior Member

04-27-2012

Manaumne gives 20 AD base and 20 AD per 1000 mana. That's 20-40 extra damage on R (1000-3000 mana).

Archangel gives 45 AP base and 30 AP per 1000 mana. 22.5-40.5 extra damage on R (1000-3000) mana.

The damage boost to R is basically identical. Manamune is cheaper, gives you stronger autoattacks via AD, and a little faster to charge. Archangel's gives you better damage on his other abilities and high mana regeneraiton (this is very important because Dominion Aura is basically a super powered chalice effect, +3% to mana regeneration per 1% missing).

I strongly condemn building Manamune on an AP Kog'Maw. It makes less sense on an artillery focus, it makes less sense when you are in the range of your regular spells. It's only true advantage is being cheaper IMO, which isn't that useful because tear upgrade is low priority until mid-late game.

Quote:
With 2200 max range on his spammable ult, I would say he is.
Mage safety in Dominion is defined by how well they do when a Wukong shows up in their face, not by their range. AP Kog'Maw isn't Ashe, once his E is down, he can't kite. His range helps a ton, yes, but it needs a specialized team to keep him safe and avoiding the expanded list of counter-picks afforded by Dominion's differences from SR. No matter how good you think you are, a competent assassin will close in on you. Some will do it easier than others (such as Shaco or Kassadin as opposed to Pantheon or Talon), but make no mistake, you will be hit in the face.


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Volandum

Senior Member

04-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Degnared View Post
I won't knock that build, since I've never tried it. In fact, I think a void staff is an excellent suggestion, and I should have mentioned it in my original post. But I do want to dispel one myth about AP scaling: you can't just look at the ratio. Nunu's ult and his snowball both have very high ratios (1.0), but that doesn't mean you should stack AP on him. Instead, consider the AP ratio per second. Kog's ult has a base cooldown of 1 second at level 16. If you have 700 AP (very easily achievable with AA stacking), that's an added 210 damage per second before resists (assuming you hit each shot, of course.
Did you notice that your build features no CDR? You have 600 DPS before resists, a kog that has no bonus damage and just max CDR has 666 DPS before resists.


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Volandum

Senior Member

04-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by konfetarius View Post
Manaumne gives 20 AD base and 20 AD per 1000 mana. That's 20-40 extra damage on R (1000-3000 mana).

Archangel gives 45 AP base and 30 AP per 1000 mana. 22.5-40.5 extra damage on R (1000-3000) mana.

The damage boost to R is basically identical. Manamune is cheaper, gives you stronger autoattacks via AD, and a little faster to charge. Archangel's gives you better damage on his other abilities and high mana regeneraiton (this is very important because Dominion Aura is basically a super powered chalice effect, +3% to mana regeneration per 1% missing).
Fair enough, and kog's other abilities have a combined 1.4 AP ratio, which is not bad. I find that if I'm under about 30% it's easiest just to back though - or wait for R stacks to fade. The tear upgrade is luxury anyway, coming way after void/fh/odyn's. EDIT: I'll definitely try out AAS more.

I've tried fitting Rylai's into the build but there simply is not enough money to get there before the game is over.


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Warrrrax

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Senior Member

04-27-2012

You might consider more magic penetration. Remember that Kogs Ult deals 400 at 16 to champs but only has a 0.3 AP ratio....AND THIS DOES NOT GET MULTIPLIED!

So spending gold on AP for Ult is going to be inefficient. With 500 AP, you only go from 400 dmg to 550 dmg. Consider that most champs with 500 AP are like doubling their damage output!


Hence you should probably work on the following:
a) Magic penetration - few build any MR so this really boosts damage.
I recommend Haunted Visage for 20 penetration. Along with boots obviously.
Too bad abyssal range sucks...

b) Tons of mana for spammage. Or huge mana regen.

c) CDR - needs testing. With 40% CDR can you really fire the ULT 66% more? Or is there some global cooldown that is hit? In theory its 0.6 second cooldown at 16.

d) SMARTCASTING. To spam dat ult Faster!!


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konfetarius

Senior Member

04-27-2012

b)Not or. Both. You will be spending 333 mana per second (plus other spells) to maintain maximum damage output come late game. You will NEVER get anywhere near enough pure mana regeneration to keep up with it. But mana pool alone will mean that you are easy to bait into poking and are useless. This is a major reason why I believe Arch-Angel is very important late game.

c)Max CDR is indeed a 66% increase in his perfect accuracy DPS from R. One of the few mage examples where CDR is just as powerful of a damage multiplier as attack speed is on AD champions.

Quote:
I've tried fitting Rylai's into the build but there simply is not enough money to get there before the game is over.
For me its not just a money issue, it's an item slot issue. Maybe as a super late game replacement of Hunting Guise or Void Staff if your enemies refuse to build MR, but Dominion games simply don't last that long.

Perhaps on a Lichbane focused AP Kog'Maw Rylai has a better place.

Oh, also, if you can get an allied Amumu to build an Abyssal Scepter, he is your best friend.


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Volandum

Senior Member

04-27-2012

The build I'm looking at now is Sorcs, FH, Odyn's, Void, AAS, with the last slot free. You suggested Haunting Guise, but I don't think anything really competes with Rylai's for that slot. Maybe a Randuin's if one gets caught out too hard. I find that this build has enough mana to work with and I've never found being baited into poking to be a problem, dunno.


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Hawkwìng

Senior Member

04-27-2012

id say go nashtors for CDR. it gives more CDR than any other single item in the game. It has 10 less AP than morellos, but that AS goes great with your W.

Personally when i build ap kog, I build AA staff+nashtors+malady+hat+boots+wits end. 2.0+ AS. 600+ AP.


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Degnared

Senior Member

04-27-2012

Okay, the math.

Build 1. Sorc boots + Deathcap + AA staff x2. 10410 gold.

Stats at level 18: 2815 Mana, 515.5 AP, 20 Mpen.

Build 2. Sorc boots + Frozen Heart + Manamune x2 + Void Staff. 10370 gold.

Stats @ 18: 3215 Mana, 70 AP, 168.6 BONUS AD (so that's 268.6 AD total, not bad), 20 flat and 40% mpen, 20% CDR. Also gets 99 armor and the AS debuff.

Base DPS increase for ULT ONLY:

Build 1: 155.6
Build 2: 131.25

At 30 base MR:
1. 141.45
2. 123.82

At 70 base MR:
1. 103.71
2. 101.96

Based on this, build 2 is better against a physical damage opponent that builds MR. Build 1 has much stronger burst from Q + E, but build 2 has more armor and better autoattacks. This comes down to flavor more than one clearly being better than the other. With build 1, it would be best to ult as much as possible, throwing your burst at someone that gets into range and then running away. Build 2 could ult until they get into W range, then switch to autoattacks.

The key thing that I noticed is that, as mentioned, CDR is really strong for his ult. I'm going to try the math again with a third build, something that focuses on AP and CDR.