Hybrid Penetration Idea: Sacrificial Dagger and Whisper of the Void

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Sir Tiddles

Senior Member

04-28-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by bahamutkaiser View Post
It's a good idea but I'd rather see Gunisoos improved to provide this rather than replaced.
I really love where Guinsoo's is at the moment. It's the only CHEAP hybrid item there is, and it is a solid first item for most of the hybrid champs. Additionally, there are some hybrid damage champs like Akali that don't (and won't ever) build a guinsoo's -- unless you make it a completely different item that won't change regardless of small cost and penetration changes you give it. In that case you should just make a completely new item instead of trying to shoehorn an item filling a needed role into something else.

My only complaint about this item is that it is only 20% penetration and it is unique. A hybrid champ will only be able to afford one item slot for penetration, and 20% just isn't high enough to be able to deal with tanks since you're sacrificing extra defenses for this penetration (which is the main point of % penetration items) and the rest of the stats don't give that much extra damage to squishy champs for bursting them down. I would probably never even get this item were it implemented.


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Xela Syab

Senior Member

04-29-2012

The deal about penetration is to get a damage boost while characters are stacking defenses. Since there isn't any overpowering hybrid defense (Aegis of legion, Guardian Angel) you'd still get more damage from getting this item if you go full hybrid. A good example is Teemo, he does so much damage from magic and attacks but he he doesn't typically build a Void Staff or Last Whisper so he usually just builds items that reduce defenses like Malady and Black Cleaver. So in this case even though 20% doesn't seem much, it get's better if you use reduction items.

The item I suggested will just compliment other hybrid items, not overshadow them except maybe Nashor's. If you need alot of AP for you get Guinisoo's/Malady, sustain is Hextech Gunblade, AD then Black Cleaver, all of the above then Trinity Force. Although honestly Whisper of the Void would scare me on characters like Skarn 0.o


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DrakeDeath0

Senior Member

04-29-2012

Well, it would maybe work but the AD, AP, and cost are too high. If you look at LW it costs 2290, and it only gives 40 AD. Then there's VS, which costs 2295 and gives 80 AP. They each give about half the major item for their carry types (LW half IE, VS bit over half DC). That means that in similar fashion a hybrid pen item should give about half the best hybrid flat AP & AD item, which is Hextech Gunblade, at 40 AD and 70 AP.

It would make more sense to make an item like this out of 2 Long Swords and a Blasting Wand with a build cost of 600. This is what it would end up as:

Long Sword(415) + Long Sword(415) + Blasting Wand(860) + 600 = 2290g

25AD + 40AP Unique Passive: +20% Armor Penetration +20% Magic Penetration

This item now has a similar cost to other % penetration items and since it wouldn't have the high end-game stats that yours has it would also discourage stacking it with one of the other % penetration items.

As for the stacking passive for CDR your items have it really shouldn't be there or in that fashion. The first stacks to 10%, that's equal to Brutalizer for a similar total cost but Brutalizer also gives armor penetration. Then for the second it's 15%, which is equal to DFG but for a much higher cost, it would work better with CDR similar to Frozen Heart.

The other problem with this type of CDR is that it wouldn't be too effective on champions with long cooldowns, because they'd start the fight with their abilities so the CDR will only really effect the second rotation, which would be some time away. With how little CDR is actually given it would be better to give it flat so that all hybrids will benefit equally from it, especially considering there is so little available for hybrids.


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Nea De Penserhir

Senior Member

04-29-2012

Sacrificial Dagger
Unique Toggle: Inflicts 5% of your maximum health in damage to yourself and reverses your health regeneration, reducing healing received by 50%. Your physical damage increases magic damage you deal to an enemy by 2%, your magic damage increases physical damage you deal to an enemy by 2%. Stacks up to 5 times.

Whispers of the Void
Unique Toggle: "----------", by 4%. Stacks up to 5 times.
Unique Passive: 20% Armor Penetration, 20% Magic Penetration.


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Xela Syab

Senior Member

04-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrakeDeath0 View Post
The other problem with this type of CDR is that it wouldn't be too effective on champions with long cooldowns, because they'd start the fight with their abilities so the CDR will only really effect the second rotation, which would be some time away. With how little CDR is actually given it would be better to give it flat so that all hybrids will benefit equally from it, especially considering there is so little available for hybrids.
Champions with longer cooldowns would have to get different items either Youmuu's for AD and Deathfire/Morello's for AP. Essentially it's designed for hybrid characters who are really mobile and have a strong lane presence. MF, Ezreal, Teemo, Skarner, Shaco, Sion, and Mundo. For instance a character like Shaco could pop out of jungle, place a box behind a champ he want's to gank, deceive to their location, hit them, slow them with two shiv, and he's already got the 15% cdr to place another box, deceive again, or throw another shiv.


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Sir Koopaman

Senior Member

04-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xela Syab View Post
Sacrificial Dagger

Long Sword(410) + Amplifying Tomb(435) + 400 = 1245g

18 AD + 25 AP UNIQUE Passive: On basic attack or ability use Increases your Cooldown Reduction by 2% for 5 seconds stacks up to 5 times.

Whisper of the Void

Sacrificial Dagger(1245g) + Pickaxe(975) + Blasting Wand(860) +400 = 3480

55AD + 75AP UNIQUE Passive: +20% Armor and Magic Penetration UNIQUE Passive: On basic attack or ability use Increases your Cooldown Reduction by 3% for 5 seconds stacks up to 5 times.
I really like it, but I find one little minor problem, which is that Sacrificial Dagger has no Dagger in it, which just seems odd, but then again, it could be renamed to Sacrifical Sword, plus it would sound cooler. But in all honesty, to me, I find that Hybrid characters not named Jax have problems with Attack Speed, so I think that a Dagger should be thrown in there, but to make it fair, Sacrifical Dagger (or Sword) would be 1,600g instead of 1,245g, and Whisper of the Void would become 3,835g instead of 3,480g.

P.S.- Long Sword is 415g not 410g.


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Xela Syab

Senior Member

04-30-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Koopaman View Post
I really like it, but I find one little minor problem, which is that Sacrificial Dagger has no Dagger in it, which just seems odd, but then again, it could be renamed to Sacrifical Sword, plus it would sound cooler. But in all honesty, to me, I find that Hybrid characters not named Jax have problems with Attack Speed, so I think that a Dagger should be thrown in there, but to make it fair, Sacrifical Dagger (or Sword) would be 1,600g instead of 1,245g, and Whisper of the Void would become 3,835g instead of 3,480g.

P.S.- Long Sword is 415g not 410g.
The name just suited it better and hybrids typically grab Wits End, Madrid's Bloodrazor, Ionic Spark, Nashor's Tooth, Malady, Trinity Force, Guinisoo's Rageblade for attack speed so it wouldn't be needed and it would drive the item cost way high. Hybrids kinda lack raw hybrid damage items besides Hextech Gunblade and Guinisoo's which tend to favor the AP side.

Thanks for the reminder, It's always a hassle having to come up with items and stats while having the item info in another tab.


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Xela Syab

Senior Member

05-02-2012

Bump, also I think Guinisoo's is a great item and doesn't need any changes. Essentially you get another blasting wand and 2 daggers for a combine cost of 400 gold.


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Thornmaelstrom

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Senior Member

05-02-2012

-The %hybrid penetration item has to be comparable, but not overpowered compared to LW/VS, but can't be both items stuck in one slot; it needs to be unique. It also needs to give more than 20% pen to be worth it, and less than 40% to not punish single-type. I suggest between 24-30%.

-CDR stacks on-hit seems cool, but its inconsistent and you would end up using abilities for minor increases for the next ability. It would be better to just give a flat 5-15% (need more 5% items like Randuin's to round out builds) and make other stats stack.

-%Penetration Rageblade is cool; Sacrificial Dagger is a good name that should be built into an item regardless of what ends up with %Penetration.


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Xela Syab

Senior Member

05-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestrinast View Post
-The %hybrid penetration item has to be comparable, but not overpowered compared to LW/VS, but can't be both items stuck in one slot; it needs to be unique. It also needs to give more than 20% pen to be worth it, and less than 40% to not punish single-type. I suggest between 24-30%.

-CDR stacks on-hit seems cool, but its inconsistent and you would end up using abilities for minor increases for the next ability. It would be better to just give a flat 5-15% (need more 5% items like Randuin's to round out builds) and make other stats stack.

-%Penetration Rageblade is cool; Sacrificial Dagger is a good name that should be built into an item regardless of what ends up with %Penetration.
There really isn't any hybrid defense besides Aegis of Legion and Guardian Angel so boosting penetration beyond 20% would be overpowered since you're target would be losing >40% effective health. The item also has a larger amount of AD and AP compared to Void Staff and Last Whisper (55 vs LW 40 and 75 compared to VS 70) so it compensates that way.

When I came up with the item I looked at the recipe for Last Whisper and Void Staff to figure out a solution to hybrid penetration. My first attempt was a combination of a reworked Malady and Brutalizer to give on hit hybrid penetration but the item reduced too much effective health to be balanced and there would be no reason to pick up Black Cleaver. So I went with the first components Amplifying Tomb and Long Sword to make a base item and figured it needed an on hit/spell effect as Hybrid items typically do. I went with CDR since magic damage, stat scaling, movespeed, on hit procs are taken everywhere else or would be unbalanced on a hybrid pen item. Hybrids barely build Nashor's Tooth because the item gives too much CDR and not enough offensive stats to justify the item spot.

So I came up with Whisper of the Void, it has a sound build and so many characters can use it without completely abusing the item and the on hit/ability cdr makes it less appealing to characters with amazing ultimates. It doesn't compete with other items that provide that stat and can justify a low combine cost (Void staff and Last Whisper have 900/800 combine costs). Not only that but characters that use a variety of damage like offtanks and hybrids can really benefit from this item when using their typical builds because it syncs with Trinity Force, Wit's End, Guinisoos, Malady, Black Cleaver and immensely with Madrid's Bloodrazor since it deals both magic and physical damage.


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