multiple tanks too strong late game?

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number1jungle

Senior Member

10-23-2009

In just about every late game I've play where its fairly evenly matched(both teams killing towers and ganking at about the same rate) the team usually with more tanks wins.

This gets especially true when a team has 3-4 tanks. A team with Singed, Rammus, chogath, and tryndamere with either Singed or tryndamere initiating the fight LATE game is just about unstoppble even with a friendly tower next to you. And no last whisper and black cleaver does not solve it.

Im not saying nerf all tanks, but we all know tanks along w/its survival abilitys can pack a punch sometimes coming very close to a DPS class late game.

I feel the damage of tanks with all defensive gears should not do as much damage as they are doing now.

For example, I dont think Singed with one AP item and rest all defensive gear should be able to take off almost 1/2 of a DPS's health with one throw while a DPS fully geared for DPS still takes quite a few shots to kill singed.

What do you guys think?


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Dev Remming

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Senior Member

10-23-2009

Ima disagree. Mainly because I've never actually seen a game with more then 2 tanks, also if you have multiple tanks that are all ganking up, then back door them.

Here lemme write it out.

1. example Team of tanks walk down middle but leave both top and bottom open, You have a Yi, Jax, Twitch, Some hero that can pretty much take down a tower really easily and your tank. Have them both go down one lane while the other 3 go down another. If the tank team is stupid enough to continue down middle You just took 2 lanes to their one. And if its end game, Your tank should be able to withstand some damage from towers so back door them. Have the tank pop a heal and Yi Blow up the tower and then Back because by now the tanks that are so fearful will be coming back.

Tanks aren't known for being the fastest killers (besides when your low life and its cho'gath) or faster runners even with ghost walk.

Sure back dooring is cowerdly but at a point where its the only way you can win, **** it WIN THE GAME.

2. Last whisper dosesn't work? What heros are you playing? Hopefully not all spell casters in which your useless?

I'm saying that I've seen good dps classes such as Teemo/Twitch with last whisper and other damage stacked items just RIP through one tank. Sure its one but focus fire is the way you take out a tank. 1 hero goes down, you back hopefully and then wait to make it 3v5.

Also any good Yi/Jax with Last whisper and Life steal will pretty much just take down a tank by themselves.

Those are my opinions on the matter, If you going up against a group of tanks they probably are bad and don't have a huge amount of DPS to back them up.
~~~

Edited:

Also, how many times do you actually even see more then 2 tanks in a game? I rarely have seen 3, never 4 or more.


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number1jungle

Senior Member

10-23-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dev Remming View Post
Ima disagree. Mainly because I've never actually seen a game with more then 2 tanks, also if you have multiple tanks that are all ganking up, then back door them.

Here lemme write it out.

1. example Team of tanks walk down middle but leave both top and bottom open, You have a Yi, Jax, Twitch, Some hero that can pretty much take down a tower really easily and your tank. Have them both go down one lane while the other 3 go down another. If the tank team is stupid enough to continue down middle You just took 2 lanes to their one. And if its end game, Your tank should be able to withstand some damage from towers so back door them. Have the tank pop a heal and Yi Blow up the tower and then Back because by now the tanks that are so fearful will be coming back.

Tanks aren't known for being the fastest killers (besides when your low life and its cho'gath) or faster runners even with ghost walk.

Sure back dooring is cowerdly but at a point where its the only way you can win, **** it WIN THE GAME.

2. Last whisper dosesn't work? What heros are you playing? Hopefully not all spell casters in which your useless?

I'm saying that I've seen good dps classes such as Teemo/Twitch with last whisper and other damage stacked items just RIP through one tank. Sure its one but focus fire is the way you take out a tank. 1 hero goes down, you back hopefully and then wait to make it 3v5.

Also any good Yi/Jax with Last whisper and Life steal will pretty much just take down a tank by themselves.

Those are my opinions on the matter, If you going up against a group of tanks they probably are bad and don't have a huge amount of DPS to back them up.
~~~

Edited:

Also, how many times do you actually even see more then 2 tanks in a game? I rarely have seen 3, never 4 or more.
Tanks DO do a lot of damage. Even with just 2 out of 5 AP items(rest being defensive stuff). Thats the problem. In late games they are not squishy at all AND can pack a good punch, many coming close to(or matching) DPS classes in burst damage using their abilities.


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Pavlo

Senior Member

10-23-2009

+1 to reposado, i just played a game with 4 tanks, we were far better, but their hp was just too much, and tanks always have extreme disables, enemies were (Malphite, Singed, Alistar, Master Yi, and some random champ.) and they could just stand there without taking any damage, and push like no one was there, i hope they make tanks more killable >.<


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number1jungle

Senior Member

10-23-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlo View Post
+1 to reposado, i just played a game with 4 tanks, we were far better, but their hp was just too much, and tanks always have extreme disables, enemies were (Malphite, Singed, Alistar, Master Yi, and some random champ.) and they could just stand there without taking any damage, and push like no one was there, i hope they make tanks more killable >.<
Maybe not more killable(a tank with all tank gear SHOULD be very hard to kill).

But tone down their DPS imo. Some of the tanks have too much burst dps for being very difficult to kill(Cho'gath for example).


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Piranha Petunia

Senior Member

10-23-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dev Remming View Post
Ima disagree. Mainly because I've never actually seen a game with more then 2 tanks, also if you have multiple tanks that are all ganking up, then back door them.

Your professional opinion on the subject became void when you say something like that about this game.

I've noticed this a bit to. I don't know how well it does in higher end brackets, but I've seen multi-tank groups own for the same reasons mentioned above. It's not always about being able to kill your opponent in record time. If my damage done: your health > than your damage done:my health, I win, simple as that. Late game tanks that gear themselves right will be like this every single time, especially because of MR and Armor. I get that tanks are supposed to take a lot of punishment, but when you have a balanced team of toons against 4 or so almost unkillable targets, it becomes a ton of work to bring any one of them down, even if you have 2-3 carries. I guess they need to lower damage on tanks a bit to prevent this from happening. I couldn't tell you how to do it without gimping their DPS builds, but I also haven't thought very had on the subject either.


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Nayuki

Senior Member

10-23-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by reposado View Post
Tanks DO do a lot of damage. Even with just 2 out of 5 AP items(rest being defensive stuff). Thats the problem. In late games they are not squishy at all AND can pack a good punch, many coming close to(or matching) DPS classes in burst damage using their abilities.
...Two AP items? Using your singed example:

300+AP damage at max level with a CD of 12s. We'll put this in max CD and max AP for two items scenarios:

-------------------------------------------------------
Max CD - 40% (we'll say a fiendish and frozen for the sake of it, which also nets him some AP and giving him the credit of having some masteries for that last 5%).

Damage: 335 every 7.2s or 46.5 dps

-------------------------------------------------------
Max AP - Tears is unlikely with the other four items being 'tanky' so we'll assume a decked out Mejai (+140) and a decked out Rod of Ages (+80, could also go Rylais but Rod seemed to have better use overall once decked out).

Damage: 520 every 12s or 43.3 dps
-------------------------------------------------------

EVERYONE will have at least in the range of 30-50 natural magic resist by the time you have this item, immediatly cutting off a bit of the magical damage. Odds are any smart person at least has another 40-80 MR on as well.

That aside, if you can't eat the ~450 damage a 'ap' build will do to you up front...that's sad. If Singed caught you while you were a DPS then either you overextended into a gank with poor map awareness or you really just sucked. He of course can chase to no end but he shouldn't have much chance of soloing you. With just this bunch of items your DPSer should have a couple tier 3 items as well and be able to toe-to-toe him and laugh unless he is simply a superior player.

Other tanks will fall into pretty much the exact same mechanics. Guess what tanks are? Anti-carry. Guess what nearly every DPSer is? A carry.

Chew on it.

Edit: Btw, since when did the game not revolve around situational builds exactly? You see four-five tanks, you buy anti tank items. You get your Reavers, your Deathgrips, etc, etc and you tear through their defenses/higher hp with the simple fact that if you are a half tolerable player you WILL out-DPS a tank.


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UrQuan

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Senior Member

10-23-2009

I believe that this would be rectified when they put Deathfire Grasp in game. I don't understand why Mandred's Bloodrazor does magic damage though


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Provoked

Member

10-23-2009

Naykui, He wasn't talking about 1v1in it up in the forest. He was talking about team fights, this whole thread is about multiple tanks, not just how well they do versus a dps. I understand the point your making but it all changes when you throw in 2-3 more tanks with disables into the mix. I've played 1 match with 3 tanks in it (Alistar, Signed, Malphite) and it lasted forever. In the end they just played poorly and pushed a lane for too long for their own safety causing us to score an ace and ending the game. But I do see how a well played 3+ tank group has an advantage to a dps based group.


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Lollerman

Senior Member

10-23-2009

^ So armour stacking (which is cheap) doesn't completely nullify the damage?

Also, you guys were "stacked out DPS" champs, hence why you're so squishy.

Edit: Still don't see the overwhelming advantage... if anything, it's the fact that disables wins game. If you don't want to eat disables, don't get into 5v5 team-fight situations.

Edit 2: and don't be saying dumb things like "that's why it's OP"... that's why it's not, it's how you play and how you cling onto something dumb like "must 5v5 mid" that needs tweaking. For the record, you can ambush/intercept lone champions or even kite them around to avoid a 5v5.


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