AP/level vs Mpen

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bARRtender

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Senior Member

04-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricklessabandon View Post
i can (and probably should) write up a clear explanation, but in the meantime i'll quote a post i wrote when someone asked the following:
"Ricklessabandon, how would I caluculate, at any given point, the benefit of getting a haunting guise?"
ricklessabandon, I'd like you to take a look at my math a few pages after the post you quoted. Note, I was comparing Haunting Guise and Void Staff purely on the penetration aspects. The post is actually 2 posts long, so grab a coffee/water/tea if you want to read it. I actually go pretty far into the math, but it's easy to read.

Here's the tl;dr's (and a link):
Quote:
Originally Posted by bARRtender View Post
Tl;dr 1 (for Haunting Guise)-
mRes < 50 = Don't get Haunting Guise. You're already penetrating all their defenses.
mRes ~ 50 = ~18% increase in damage
mRes < 100 = >=12% increase in damage
mRes < 200 = >=7% increase in damage


tl;dr 2 (for Void staff) -
mRes < 50 = >=7% increase in damage
mRes < 100 = >= 19% increase in damage
mRes < 200 = >= 32% increase in damage


Super duper tl;dr -
If you're looking for penetration only Haunting Guise is better than Void Staff for targets <79 mRes. Otherwise go with a Void Staff.
If you're looking for increasing your damage, Haunting Guise is worth a LOT of AP if your targets have low mRes.


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GrignardTS

Senior Member

04-19-2012

Attached is some math I did. I'll only report the results.

This is purely a straight damage comparison. I took into account CS aura and the 10% mastery.

ASSUMPTIONS (Super Important)
Flat case uses Mpen Marks, Glyphs, and Quints
% case uses Mpen marks and AP/level glyphs
Assume level 15 at end of game
Assume 18 minute game
Assume attacking a carry with scaling MR, start at 40 and scale to 100 linearly.
Assume buying:
Sorcerer's Shoes @ 2m
Haunting Guise @ 7m
Void Staff @ 10m
Not accounting for ultimate
Assume 30 base spell damage added per level starting with a 180 base at L3
Assume an overall AP ratio of 2.0
End with 400 base AP scaling from 0 linearly

Bad assumptions:
Doesn't account for boots (%mp) case
Doesn't add quints (%mp) case

Of course these are only bad assumptions if the %mpen user chooses to use Boots of Lucidity and/or offensive Quints (Mpen, AP)

I'll first start out by saying that its too difficult to account for CDR in damage calculations. While one might be tempted to just say "Well, if I do 100 damage and gain 15% cdr, then I do 115 damage because I use 15% more skills"

This is only true if you're using abilities on cooldown.


Findings:

Flat MP always does more damage to a carry over % MP.

They go even around 140 MR

Base damage moderately favors flat MP

AP Ratio very slightly favors % MP

Damage differential:

Table is:
% damage greater (flat vs %), % time of game

< 5%, 5.7%
5-10%, 25.7%
10-20%, 51.4%
>20%, 17.1%

This means that ~68% of the game is spent doing greater than 10% overall more damage. This comes primarily from the time before Staff is purchased.

Also, 17% of the game you are doing more than 20% greater damage. This is a powerful stat.

Basically, the peak is at around 28% more damage. This is at the time before staff is bought and after guise. Flat mpen periodically scrapes the bottom barrels of MR. Twice (After buying Sorc and then again with Guise) does the flat case get the opponent VERY close to 0 MR. And the time period spent at this point until MR is built up again is too great of a damage increase for % mpen to compete with.

Adding Abyssal to the mix would only make the case better for flat.

TL;DR:

The advantage gained early/mid game by running flat mpen over % mpen is too great when compared to the consistent damage versus all targets late game with % mpen.
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Psi21

Senior Member

04-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrignardTS View Post
Attached is some math I did. I'll only report the results.

This is purely a straight damage comparison. I took into account CS aura and the 10% mastery.

ASSUMPTIONS (Super Important)
Flat case uses Mpen Marks, Glyphs, and Quints
% case uses Mpen marks and AP/level glyphs
Assume level 15 at end of game
Assume 18 minute game
Assume attacking a carry with scaling MR, start at 40 and scale to 100 linearly.
Assume buying:
Sorcerer's Shoes @ 2m
Haunting Guise @ 7m
Void Staff @ 10m
Not accounting for ultimate
Assume 30 base spell damage added per level starting with a 180 base at L3
Assume an overall AP ratio of 2.0
End with 400 base AP scaling from 0 linearly

Bad assumptions:
Doesn't account for boots (%mp) case
Doesn't add quints (%mp) case

Of course these are only bad assumptions if the %mpen user chooses to use Boots of Lucidity and/or offensive Quints (Mpen, AP)

I'll first start out by saying that its too difficult to account for CDR in damage calculations. While one might be tempted to just say "Well, if I do 100 damage and gain 15% cdr, then I do 115 damage because I use 15% more skills"

This is only true if you're using abilities on cooldown.


Findings:

Flat MP always does more damage to a carry over % MP.

They go even around 140 MR

Base damage moderately favors flat MP

AP Ratio very slightly favors % MP

Damage differential:

Table is:
% damage greater (flat vs %), % time of game

< 5%, 5.7%
5-10%, 25.7%
10-20%, 51.4%
>20%, 17.1%

This means that ~68% of the game is spent doing greater than 10% overall more damage. This comes primarily from the time before Staff is purchased.

Also, 17% of the game you are doing more than 20% greater damage. This is a powerful stat.

Basically, the peak is at around 28% more damage. This is at the time before staff is bought and after guise. Flat mpen periodically scrapes the bottom barrels of MR. Twice (After buying Sorc and then again with Guise) does the flat case get the opponent VERY close to 0 MR. And the time period spent at this point until MR is built up again is too great of a damage increase for % mpen to compete with.

Adding Abyssal to the mix would only make the case better for flat.

TL;DR:

The advantage gained early/mid game by running flat mpen over % mpen is too great when compared to the consistent damage versus all targets late game with % mpen.
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1. Is stacking Magic Resistance to 180 rather than 100 change your view?

2. You stated yourself you are ignoring CDR does this bother you?

3. After Sorc. Shoes, Haunting Guise and Abyssal Scepter what are you getting in the remainder 3 slots to compensate?

4. Does it bother you that Merc Treads and a Negatron cloak counters Sorc. Shoes and Haunting Guise at a difference of +645 gold to the player stacking MR?


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K J

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Senior Member

04-19-2012

Stacking as much flat pen as possible, getting an Abyssal, and not getting a Void Staff, the endgame LeBlanc does more damage in her burst than an endgame LB using Sorc Boots and a Void Staff against opponents who are between ~50 and ~120 MR. Against anyone with higher or lower MR, void staff build wins out greatly; however, considering that under 50 MR both builds have a combined spell burst of over 3400 damage, the flat pen, with a full build against opponents with under 120 MR, wins out

However, the higher, cheaper AP of a build using AP runes and not hoarding flat MPen items gives him a lead from the start throughout the entire midgame.

LeBlanc doesn't have trouble killing squishies, the only real threat comes from other assassins or burst mages or bruisers she can't kill or get away from. In that regard, especially when considering the additional slot available for a defensive item or lich's bane/DFG as well as the improved damage from both items with the higher AP, I'd put the AP runes with a void staff as a better build 95% of the time.


Used LeBlanc as a basis for these calculations.
Used equal 21-0-9 masteries for both builds.
Flat pen build used MPen Marks, Glyphs, and Quints with scaling AP/level Seals.
AP build used MPen Marks with scaling AP/level Seals and Glyphs and flat AP Quints.

If any of these factors change, the results change with them. For instance, mages who have healing, shield, or other utility spells that receive an AP ratio receive more of a benefit from the AP rune build than they do from magic penetration. Also, I didn't run the numbers with a void staff with the flat pen or any other mix-match scenario.


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GrignardTS

Senior Member

04-19-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psi21 View Post
1. Is stacking Magic Resistance to 180 rather than 100 change your view?

2. You stated yourself you are ignoring CDR does this bother you?

3. After Sorc. Shoes, Haunting Guise and Abyssal Scepter what are you getting in the remainder 3 slots to compensate?

4. Does it bother you that Merc Treads and a Negatron cloak counters Sorc. Shoes and Haunting Guise at a difference of +645 gold to the player stacking MR?
1. Stated in my post

2. I did say 'Bad assumption'. Suggest a way of incorporating it.

3. Abyssal was not mentioned in my assumptions nor used in my calculations.

4. Using this logic, I can say a ruby crystal counters an amp tomb. And no, it doesn't bother me. Because if they are counter building me, they are neglecting doing that to everyone else.