AP/level vs Mpen

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inFe eD

Senior Member

04-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psi21 View Post
Sorry to sound upset but,

Magic penetration in this game is abysmal (no pun intended).

Haunting Guise is Riot's eye sore/redhead step child of mage items.
(Can't believe they removed the CDR on it at one time, it still doesn't build into anything and it is more expensive than the Brutalizer that stacks with the Ghostblade. *Yeah Armor Pen. vs. MR Pen.)

Abysmal Scepter offers some defense and is in the right direction but its range of area effect is situational and cost is just expensive.

That leaves stacking Sorcerer boots and you wouldn't believe how many players feel that is a trollish build.

The famed MR items rock thou:
Quicksilver Sash - 56 MR and better than cleanse effect
Odyn's Veil - 50 MR, 10% Magic damage reduction And a clicky nuke

Hell, I would settle for the MR on JUST ONE of the above items they pretty much nix's the effect of all 3 Magic penetration items listed above. (I think the funniest part is that the Quicksilver Sash is cheaper than the Haunting Guise.)

But the argument that the Void staff and Stacking AP is best has been made a tremendous amount of times on the SR Forums. Err did I say SR forums I mean General Forums.... geez how could I make that mistake *roll eyes*.
That's SR. This is Dominion. Flat Pen is VERY strong on Dominion on certain champs, since a large part of the game is decided before everyone has their full builds. On SR, lanes basically afk farm until champs have half their build completed, making flat Pen much worse there comparatively. A carry isn't going to rush a Veil first on Dominion unless he wants to be worthless for the greater part of the game, so he'll be a prime target for awhile.


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Psi21

Senior Member

04-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by inFe eD View Post
That's SR. This is Dominion. Flat Pen is VERY strong on Dominion on certain champs, since a large part of the game is decided before everyone has their full builds. On SR, lanes basically afk farm until champs have half their build completed, making flat Pen much worse there comparatively. A carry isn't going to rush a Veil first on Dominion unless he wants to be worthless for the greater part of the game, so he'll be a prime target for awhile.
(The SR reference was to poke fun that SR discussion is welcome in the General forum but Dominion discussion threads get moved.)

And...

The argument can be made that those teams (especially in the higher tiers) that build defensively while building offensively can easily shut down a mage stacking static magic penetration.

With readily bought stronger and sometime cheaper MR items.

Some of those champs who get these items also have built in absorb shields and/or active/passive reduction abilities.

Now you can argue that Kassadin, Ryze and Poppy don't fall into that pattern but they too can build offensively by already being defensive by nature of the champ.


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lbgsloan

Senior Member

04-18-2012

This is a lot of discussion about nothing; if the mpen buffs were actually significant there would be something to talk about here, however we're talking an increase from:

Glyphs:
From 0.57x9 = 5.13 mpen
To 0.68x9 = 6.12 mpen

Quints:
From 1.89x3 = 5.67 mpen
To 2.18x3 = 6.54 mpen

In both cases, not even a full point of extra mpen. Mages are still far better off running AP/level or CDR glyphs, and tanks with bad ratios are still better off running MR/level or CDR glyphs. The mpen quints are almost interesting for tanks now, but movespeed is still going to trump it IMO. The only impact these tiny changes are going to have are that SR players will probably consider MR/level over the flat MR runes now. The other problem with mpen runes of course is that AP or CDR runes help all abilities, not just damaging ones. Karma for example gets shield power, healing amount, and damage from AP. She only gets damage from mpen.

The biggest problem with the flat mpen route though is that Haunting Guise is complete ass. I have no idea why Riot did a 'mpen overhaul' and yet forgot about this thing.


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urmamasllama

Senior Member

04-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Elk View Post
I promise you will be happier if you get cdr instead. You currently trade a blasting wand worth of AP for 12-15% cdr depending on whether you get flat or per level. Unless you play a champ that must instagib someone in one full rotation.
thats what i do


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GrignardTS

Senior Member

04-18-2012

From my testing, I've seen a huge increase in damage early/mid game compared to the AP runes.

Sure, you're only gaining ~2 points of Mpen from the prebuffed runes, but +15% is +15%. And it still makes them more desirable.

I feel that long range poke and burst mages could greatly benefit from running full mpen.

Start with some AP (Blasting Wand+Boots or Ring) and let the 21 mpen from your runes rule the first fight at windmill.
Build into Sorc by 3m, making your damage true.
Build some more AP/CDR
Build Guise around 7 or 8m. Your still doing near true damage.
Sell Guise around 15m for Staff or build Abyssal, depending on the match.

81 flat mpen is kinda scary.


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ricklessabandon

qa analyst

04-18-2012
2 of 3 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psi21 View Post
Magic penetration in this game is abysmal
it's actually very strong.

tbh, the biggest problem with penetration is that it's misunderstood, not that it's underpowered.


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Fox P McCloud

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Senior Member

04-18-2012

The problem with MPen runes: they become virtually worthless once a caster gets void staff.

Because of the order of operations, unless a champion's base damage is incredibly high (and/or incredibly crappy AP ratios), once a caster gets void, there goes the effectiveness of your MPen runes vs AP runes.

I'm a bit confused a to why flat AP quints weren't buffed this patch, but the glyphs were...


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Psi21

Senior Member

04-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricklessabandon View Post
it's actually very strong.

tbh, the biggest problem with penetration is that it's misunderstood, not that it's underpowered.
Ricklessabandon, I respect you. So I will drop it.

The blanket statement that magic penetration is very strong is true.

<--- the face is because I know you can't go in to further details about my previous post since balancing items and champs is not your job title.


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Dactylogram

Senior Member

04-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricklessabandon View Post
it's actually very strong.

tbh, the biggest problem with penetration is that it's misunderstood, not that it's underpowered.
Can someone explain this further? I don't get how people misunderstand it.


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Xhyros

Senior Member

04-18-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dactylogram View Post
Can someone explain this further? I don't get how people misunderstand it.
People misunderstand it because it is a flat number that increases your offensive capabilities by a %. That % is determined by your enemy's HP. However, people see the small number and subconsciously compare it to the big, visible numbers you get with AP. Mpen grows stronger as your enemy grows stronger (HP-wise), whereas AP grows weaker as your opponent grows stronger (MR-wise). Mpen gets more effective as your spells get stronger. AP does not, it will always raise your spell's damage by a flat amount. Mpen will always increase your damage by the same %, whereas AP's contribution lessens with growing enemy MR. 20 Mpen will lower the enemy's mHP by 20%. In order to increase your spell's damage by 20% with AP you need to have the spell's base damage * 0.2 / the spell's AP. As the spell gets stronger, you need more AP to have the same effect as the 20 Mpen.

tl;dr: Mpen has smaller numbers, but does more for your damage and scales up as you level and as the enemy levels, whereas your AP will scale downwards.