Locked Camera Discussion

First Riot Post
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gnfnrf

Senior Member

04-21-2012

First, I just want to say that I'm amazed that there are 12 pages of reasonable, rational conversation about game options here with almost no whining, entitlement-based complaining, or other stupid junk. The quality of this forum appears to be much better than that of other games.

I play locked. I want to switch away, but my habits are too ingrained, and when I try an unlocked game I just play very badly, so I think I'm stuck.

I should second (or fifth or sixth) that I think the "Locked persists across games" setting is broken. I lock at the beginning of every game. It's possible that once in a while I start locked, but certainly not normally.

Playing locked normally doesn't bother me, but I've written off learning a few champions with longrange powers, and playing purple non-mid can be troublesome.

The best solution I've seen in this thread is a wider zoom option. That, however, appears to have been rejected for other reasons.

The next best solution is to allow a "relative lock" so that the camera follows the champion at an offset. These could either be presets, or you could just have a hotkey (Alt-Y, or something) which says "Leave the camera where it is relative to the champion, but from now on, scroll as the champ moves." and let the player adjust it themselves.

I do hope something changes, because in those situations where locked is bad, it is bad (the inner top blue tower has longer range than your vision locked coming down the lane, I think.)


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LastProtagonist

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Senior Member

04-21-2012

I read the first three pages of this thread, so forgive me if these ideas have been brought up before.

1. Camera "swivel." Have the camera remain unlocked for a certain radius around your champion that can be set by the user. It can be equivalent to in-game distances. If you're Tryndamere, maybe you'll only want a radius of 200 that the camera can reach out. If you're Kog'Maw, you may want the swivel to be 600 or more in order to land your skillshots.

This can be set up individually in the UI; checkmark the box, type in the radius for your camera. Click-dragging the map will make the camera snap back to you unless you've hit Y to unlock.


2. Designate a portion of the screen to be centered on your character during unlocked mode. Thus if the screen isn't on your champion, a small "window" will be displayed, giving you an idea of what's going on around you. Make this window flash red when you're getting hit. This can be toggled on and off for those who do and do not like it.


3. (I know this has been mentioned but people would like more) UI adjustability, where we can position the minimap and windows where we would like with the ability to scale them as well in-game. Then just add a lock toolbar function so people don't mess with their stuff in the heat of the moment. It would also be nice to incorporate some transparency, or to make it so that all of the windows can be clicked through. (I use ctrl to level up my skills, and it's frustrating I can't click through the ability toolbar at times.)


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Cryxx

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Senior Member

04-21-2012

Here is my idea

What you do is code something for "Center Camera on Champion"
Then you have the variables that trigger it.(I would use slide bars or a up/down numeric value)What this means is when the threshold of the variable (or one of them) for the Center Camera on Champion is met, it will do a center back on that champion.

Now for the variable options, you can assign a few of them.

Summoner - Champion Damage - There are multiple options here, and would have to be testedt
Options:
1) % of health dmg taken
a) subset of this is a second slider for the % of health taken over time
2) A health threshold. IE snap back to me if I'm at 30% health

What this means is if your a jungler and you set it to if I get below 20% health, snap the camera back to me. Or set it to 10% health over 3seconds if you notice a big counter jungler and jungle camps won't do that much damage over that short of time but a champion ability would.

Variable 2: A Timed variable.
With a check box on to turn these on or off. "Center after X time (in seconds). Helpful for Supports and
others that are looking around etc.

Variable 3: Damage taken by others.

(I can't think of any easy to way to describe it right now)
The 3 bars you need for this are.

1) % of health damage they take and the second sub-bar of "over how much time?" in second.
2) Distance from the champion. I don't know what units you would use, but for this you would probably want a range indicator to pop up on screen that moved out to the max. I would recommend 0-750


Remove camera lock. You now don't need it. Your tutorial on the camera (yes you would have to make a video tutorial of this and force the players to probably watch it at least 1x).

So what if you 'do' want to lock the camera. You set the "time' to center on chanpion option and place it at 0. So it's always on you. However do not make that the default. Make about 20s the default or make you take 10% of your health over 5s.

SO what is the default?

The tutorial. What you do is setup a map with 2 bots and the champion.
You ask the player which option they want to choose. They pick the variables. Then based on the scenario and after they select it and choose 'test' the camera moves away.

Then the scenario happens. If they choose % of health over time damage. The enemy champion does enough damage to trigger the effect. Then you ask the player if that was okay or do they want to test more options.
If it's time based (0-60s) you just have it wait and it'll snap back.
The 2nd bot is friendly to test the "damage ally takes" option and instead of the enemy bot hitting you they hit them a few times in order to trigger that option.

Each time you ask if they are done. You keep this going until they say "done"

Anytime a champion wants to test some of these in a calm setting they can run the tutorial if they want. Over time they will just change them based on what role they are playing or what they want at the time.


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Sedgitize

Junior Member

04-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by boourns View Post
Actually we pay at lot of attention to min-spec performance. If we're going to tell people they can play on a setup we want them to have a playable experience! For boxed products this may be less important, but we want to be as inclusive as possible. As much as I sometimes want to discard our min-spec so we don't have to worry about low resolutions screens, etc. I understand that not everyone in our audience can spend a bunch of money on a better computer. We still want them to be able to play our game *and* have fun!

Also, I would suggest in the situation you outline, your ability to only focus on one thing at a time is as much of a limiting factor as field of view. Plus if you're actually surrounded by three people with long range abilities like that from outside your tower range... you're probably not getting out of this situation alive! I hope the rest of your team is taking advantage of the situation by pushing the other lanes.

If you want more info, try to get Morello's attention with an @Morello in General or Zileas (although with Zileas you'd better be prepared to take some trolling from him in addition to useful information :P).
Thanks for the sugeestion of how to contact them. I can take some trolling lol... I know my posts have been... arrogant?

Anywho, just to be clear on my issues with camera...

My problem isn't so much just to locked camera... I use unlocked when locked isn't going to cut it (purple bot lane, lux either side, teamfights, etc...) but even then I simply can't see enough of the area around my champ simultaneously. That is my issue... regardless of using locked/unlocked.

The scenario I gave you was just one example... and yes... I was likely boned to all hell lol... but I could have at least dodged a few more shots to give my teammates time to get there, or take a tower or whatever. It is just all too common that I can't see enough of my immediate surroundings simultaneously.

Don't think I haven't noticed one or two slight remarks flaming me lol... I know I'm being blunt and ignorant. At least I'm trying to formulate a rational post though lol... I can take whatever flames zilead/whatshisface has to offer!


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DarkÇide

Member

04-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by boourns View Post
I definitely agree that we don't want locked camera players to have a bad experience. What if I told you I thought the best way to address this was to make unlocked camera easier to use for people who are accustomed to locked camera (I actually did say that in an earlier post...)? I'd love to see more discussion on that. There have been some interesting suggestions that have some problems, but I'd love to hear some more along those lines.

I've read all the posts that people have made and I'm not satisfied with band-aid solutions like flipping the UI to the top or changing the camera (which only hides the problem by making it less obvious during the laning phase). There is still a huge situational awareness penalty and problems with using long rage abilities. The purple/blue side view distance just makes it more obvious on purple side. How can we solve these problems and still preserve the things that people like about locked camera mode?
Don't take this the wrong way because I'm not intending to be a smart ass Boourns, but after watching the camera lock/map flip discussion for a numbers of months now it seems like a "band aid solution" is the only thing you are open to. The reason I say that is because while you continue to state that a mirror mapping option for purple team is not a good enough solution I haven't heard even one alternative viable solution. The alternative viable solution is a fairy tale, no matter how much discussion there is, the problem isn't going to solve itself with a magic solution, the best you're going to do is find a solution good enough to shut people up without really fixing the problem. If I'm wrong and there is a solution out there, please enlighten us, but the conversation is going stale.

Some players just prefer the camera locked because it has advantages that fit their play style, and that's the most simple and straight forward way to look at it.

Laning from purple side as the AD carry is something that can set a camera locked player back enough to effectively take them out of the game. Where missing out on a gank because the same view angle problems effect a player might make a player miss a gank and missing a gank wont break your game like being zoned under your turret as the AD carry. Also it should not be ignored that ganking is much easier to do with the camera working against you because you have the element of surprise and you get to choose when you gank, you aren't stuck in the ganking phase for the entire early game, which defines your strength in mid/late game.

As a player who does well camera locked and has no plan to adjust to an uncomfortable camera control system, and who also spends too much money on LoL skins to consider himself strictly casual I can tell you that all of the solutions that aren't a full mirror view option for the purple team are "band aid solutions" and it's preventing me from taking League of Legends seriously as a game I want to invest any more time in practicing. Any better solutions that you can come up with outside of a mirror view option would improve the game on top of the mirror option, but will also fall short without the mirror option so keep trying to find additional improvements but just do us all a favor and skip ahead to where you realize there are no viable alternatives to a full mirror view option please.

Diablo 3 is in free beta this weekend, go try and and see how well camera locked play can work. I know it's a different game, but the combat mechanics have so much in common that unlocking the camera should not break your ability to play the game effectively like it does in League of Legends. But the issues of a unbalanced map due to one perspective holding a clear advantage make League of Legends feel very anti-flow.

I assume you are already familiar with the concept of flow in video games, because you strike me as an adept designer. Even though we don't see eye to eye on the whole "option" of camera lock being a viable "option" issue. I bring up flow because using mouse movement to adjust the camera during combat when you need your mouse for movement and attacking is very anti-flow for many players, I can testify strongly to that.

If it would be helpful I could attempt to further articulate the strengths of having the option to lock your camera AND be competitive from both sides of the map, but honestly I feel like the case has been made very well by many players, but hasn't been considered because, well because, I don't know why there is so much resistance... The problems seems to be that you don't take our problem seriously enough and we don't consider what you bring up as problems to the solution as problems of the same caliber. And that's just what it boils down to in the end.

I apologize if I got long winded, but I'm anxious to contribute to this conversation because it's the only real issue that prevents me from enjoying the game that has anything to do with mechanics and features, and it seems to me like mechanic and feature issues should be resolved early in a game's development cycle, not years later after being begged for by thousands upon thousands of community members.

Edit to append: I don't want to have to double post to say, this thread needs a sticky.


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Best Atheist NA

Senior Member

04-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkide View Post
Some players just prefer the camera locked because it has advantages that fit their play style, and that's the most simple and straight forward way to look at it.
Well said. I couldn't agree more.

Quote:
Laning from purple side as the AD carry is something that can set a camera locked player back enough to effectively take them out of the game
Exactly. When you play on blue side bot lane, you can almost tell if the enemy AD carry/support is a camera locked user or not, by the way they move and/or extend. I love playing AD carries, mainly Kog and Graves, but I feel like I might be costing my team a win by playing them on purple side. The only time I've found that I can play bot lane purple side effectively is to keep the lane pushed out so it starts to push around the corner, and allows the camera to see more ahead of you. If you're pushed up against your own turret on purple side, you can't even see the champions that are poking at you.

Quote:
I apologize if I got long winded, but I'm anxious to contribute to this conversation because it's the only real issue that prevents me from enjoying the game that has anything to do with mechanics and features, and it seems to me like mechanic and feature issues should be resolved early in a game's development cycle, not years later after being begged for by thousands upon thousands of community members.
I totally feel the same way. I've been keeping track of my recent matches, and I've won 6 out of the last 8 games where I was blue side, and lost 4 out of the 5 purple side matches that I played. Granted, this is a small sample size, but I honestly feel my win:loss ratio is much greater on blue side. The wins that I get on purple side are usually when someone else on my team is able to carry more than I can.

The announced stealth rework has been out for over a year now... I just hope we can get a fix to this issue in a more timely manner


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SirLanik

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Senior Member

04-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by boourns View Post
Can you articulate what you like about locked camera or dislike about free camera that makes you want to sacrifice situational awareness for this experience? Those are things we would want to preserve while still improving on the disadvantages of locked camera.
I play locked camera in almost every situation. I find it essential for simultaneously dodging skillshots and firing my own accurately - with unlocked camera I can generally do one or the other but not both all the time.

I only play unlocked when I'm purple team, and even then generally only when someone in my lane/game has massive range. This includes me or enemies, and includes champions like Kog'maw, Caitlyn, Ezreal, Blitzcrank, and some others.


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DarkÇide

Member

04-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laniker View Post
I play locked camera in almost every situation. I find it essential for simultaneously dodging skillshots and firing my own accurately - with unlocked camera I can generally do one or the other but not both all the time.

I only play unlocked when I'm purple team, and even then generally only when someone in my lane/game has massive range. This includes me or enemies, and includes champions like Kog'maw, Caitlyn, Ezreal, Blitzcrank, and some others.
Yep, I've started only playing Vayne if I end up bottom lane purple side because she can punish you when you come into her range and she has the Condemn as a "oh sh*t" key. I also play the laning phase very passively which cost me farm and I look forward to the point in the game where teams start roaming because I can lock my camera and play my game, making an attempt to catch up on the early game advantage I gave up by getting myself a couple kills in mid game. Sometimes it works, but most good teams will just focus an un-fed Vayne so I depend on my team more than I should for protection.


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Kai Talakki

Member

04-22-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkide View Post
Yep, I've started only playing Vayne if I end up bottom lane purple side because she can punish you when you come into her range and she has the Condemn as a "oh sh*t" key. I also play the laning phase very passively which cost me farm and I look forward to the point in the game where teams start roaming because I can lock my camera and play my game, making an attempt to catch up on the early game advantage I gave up by getting myself a couple kills in mid game. Sometimes it works, but most good teams will just focus an un-fed Vayne so I depend on my team more than I should for protection.
I feel the same way playing mid. If I notice I'm on purple, I'll go support Lulu just to avoid having to deal with the sight issue.

This situation is kind of tricky, because it seems like the locked camera "issue" is being treated as an issue with locked camera, when those of us who actually use locked camera only see an issue with purple side.

I've also never faced an issue playing Kog'Maw with a locked camera, which is a champion I've noticed being used in the "hard to use long-range skillshots" argument. I haven't run into any case in which I felt like I couldn't see where I wanted to aim.


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Taxen

Junior Member

04-22-2012

I don't like the zoomed in camera (hud) I tryed to change it but it would let me. I tryed scrolling to.