"Dominion is not ready for ranked in terms of balance"

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inFe eD

Senior Member

04-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infirc View Post
Excepting for the passive rage generation this sounds logical and viable.
Maybe not passive generation, but rage heroes in general need a slight buff, since there's a severe lack of creeps to whack for rage unless you're bot lane.


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Cauldrath

Senior Member

04-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infirc View Post
Excepting for the passive rage generation this sounds logical and viable.
Seeing how Shyvana is mid tier and Tryndamere and Renekton are bottom tier, seems like it would bring them up to a more-reasonable level without causing problems.


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FDru

Senior Member

04-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infirc View Post
Excepting for the passive rage generation this sounds logical and viable.
Considering all three champs that use rage are underpowered in Dominion, I don't see why.


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Ottyssey

Junior Member

04-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahlen View Post
The problem with 'automatic' bans and that some champions are too good on Dom is that it's bad for strategic play.

There's no strategy involved to being forced to ban the same 2-3 champs every game. There's no counter play or 'meta' choices involved in it. It's simple must pick or must ban. And from a competitive stand point must pick/must ban is a very bad thing.

Having strong picks or weak picks or team specific picks is good. There's strategy and depth involved with building a strong team composition that does well on the map, or is suited to a specific strategy. Having half or more of your bans/picks automatically going to specific champions makes it so that strategy and innovation stagnates to a certain degree.

Ex. Why experiment when you can just automatically succeed by picking WW.
This is exactly why I suggested increasing the total number of bans for Dominion (and Twisted Treeline) by +2 over SR ranked. So if 6 champions are banned in SR, as is currently the case, Dominion/TT would have 8 bans.

As I originally stated, I am fine with SR being the game mode Riot balances around. Even though I enjoy Dominion, I appreciate that it is currently a niche game mode.

Champions are hard enough to balance. The roster is 95 deep and continues to grow. Keeping champions balanced in SR is a tall enough order. I'm not suggesting it wouldn't be possible to balance champions for both SR and Dominion (and Twisted Treeline), only that it complicates an already complicated issue.

I also appreciate that, if I were in Riot's position, I would want to avoid the rage that would come from SR purists when a champion is changed due to issues in Dominion.

It's a simple fix. It's not the best or most nuanced fix, but it's easy to explain and implement. At this point, we're lucky to get anything for Dominion.


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KSHarrison

Senior Member

04-13-2012

Extra rage generation sounds like a good idea. What do people think of Dominion's fundamental problems, though, such as

1) lack of players (evident in draft)

1a) lack of ranked

1b) lack of balance for some champs

Are these actually problems that Dom faces?


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Phourc

Senior Member

04-13-2012

Hey, this looks like a fun discussion!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahlen View Post
Why experiment when you can just automatically succeed by picking WW.
Honestly there's only really one permaban at all Elos and that's Rammus.

90% of champs so imbalanced QQ changes between strata, lower tiers is things like Shaco and Tryndamere, mid you see more AD caster bans and top tier some of the things that allow ridiculous bull**** when played skillfully (*cough* Kassadin *cough*).

I ban WW because I can never convince my ADs to build an executioners (20 second cooldown, what?), but I don't see him being permaban if I ever broke into the level where people have heard of this item xP


Quote:
Originally Posted by KSHarrison View Post
Poppy is the perfect example. Poppy is mad OP on Dominion, because she is crazy strong with a long duration invulnerability on her ult. Her compensating factor in SR is that her laning phase is weak. In dom the laning phase is skipped. Riot has made clear they won't compromise SR for Dominion, so how do you balance poppy for Dom, without changing how she plays in SR? There is no global aura that can be instated to solve that problem.
I think a lot of the crazy powerful case champions are due for a rework anyway, Poppy especially (and correct me if I'm wrong here) has no place in high level SR play. She's basically Eve-tier. (Oh hey, Eve is stupid obnoxious to play against, and she's got a rework soon™)

The flip case is a little weirder, with champions that require actual minions to do well (Renek, Trynd, Veiger come to mind) and we're likely just going to have to accept that they don't really fit into this mode.


Mmm... I didn't save it for a quote but definitely agreeing with whoever said they wish Riot had been playing around with the Dominion Aura - there's a lot of things that could/should be done with it, but all would drastically change playstyles. Case in point - when Dom came out it was suggested that a bit of CDR be thrown into the aura, but were that to actually happen pretty much all my builds would be over CDR cap xP


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Hugs From Momma

Senior Member

04-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phourc View Post
Case in point - when Dom came out it was suggested that a bit of CDR be thrown into the aura, but were that to actually happen pretty much all my builds would be over CDR cap xP
Which is why there should be a very effective CDR item that caters only to AP Casters. There's been a few threads on the topic but its basically this:

-Tanks can itemize for CDR pretty well with given itemization.
-AD casters are crazy good and don't need access to more CDR.
-AP casters are hampered by the lack of blue buff and the best way to address this is an item that caters to them.

Basically we need Morello's reworked and vastly improved.


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KSHarrison

Senior Member

04-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugs From Momma View Post
Which is why there should be a very effective CDR item that caters only to AP Casters. There's been a few threads on the topic but its basically this:

-Tanks can itemize for CDR pretty well with given itemization.
-AD casters are crazy good and don't need access to more CDR.
-AP casters are hampered by the lack of blue buff and the best way to address this is an item that caters to them.

Basically we need Morello's reworked and vastly improved.
I think Morello's as an item is great - it just doesn't fit into dom very well.

As an AP caster, you will be looking for damage and survivability. Rylai's is great for hp and kiting. Zhonya's is a near must for the plethora of AD champs. Deathcap is the main source of damage which is sorely needed to compete. By the time these items are gotten, the match is nearly over, and Morello's is coming too late. I'm not sure if this is the problem with AP champions; I am just mentioning why I think Morello's evil tome doesn't fit in quite as well. In fact, I think that the evil tome has the same problem in SR, where a deathcap and survivability come first, and Morello's never ends up being taken.


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Hugs From Momma

Senior Member

04-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by KSHarrison View Post
I think Morello's as an item is great - it just doesn't fit into dom very well.
.
It's not a good item, and it doesn't fit in because, well, it sucks. You yourself listed many items which are a much better value, and thus, much better purchases.

On the numbers, with Morello's you pay 850g for 20% CDR.

Nashor's (for example), once you finish the item, you get the 25% CDR for free.


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Wyvernfist

Senior Member

04-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottyssey View Post
I don't understand why having "autoban" champs prohibits the ability to play ranked Dominion.
My biggest concern is getting into a ranked champ select and having the team captain ban champions he "doesn't like" rather than the overpowered ones. It happens all the time in draft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottyssey View Post
Allowing 4 bans per team instead of 3 (or 5 instead of 4 when SR's ban limit is increased down the road) would do a lot to help this issue.
I love this idea!