Why don't more teams go no jungle?

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EnglshGentleman

Senior Member

04-12-2012

This is a honest question. I'm am sure we have all had those games in Normal where you end up having no jungle and two people go top. In most games I have noticed however, that doing this almost always ends with the enemy solo getting no cs and being severely underleveled if one of the champions is a good zoner (like teemo or other ranged) and the other champion is a good last hitter. If the top is getting beat too hard, often the jungle will be forced to lane with them, to try and prevent their top from getting dove at tower over and over.

So again, why don't more formal 5v5 teams go no jungle? I understand that there is less dragon control and buff control (though the dual top lane can still have whichever buff is next to them), but it seems the pros of completely gimping an enemy champion outweighs the cons.


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ADGarner

Senior Member

04-12-2012

It's essentially committing to a strategy of denial. At a pro level if you were to do this it would be sort of saying "We don't think this guy is pro enough to handle a 2v1 lane". Just look at Moscow 5 in Kiev. They left Urgot all by himself in bottom lane while Alistar roamed and counter jungled. They did not shut down Urgot. Instead he blissfully farmed and out leveled them despite their best efforts.


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EnglshGentleman

Senior Member

04-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ADGarner View Post
It's essentially committing to a strategy of denial. At a pro level if you were to do this it would be sort of saying "We don't think this guy is pro enough to handle a 2v1 lane". Just look at Moscow 5 in Kiev. They left Urgot all by himself in bottom lane while Alistar roamed and counter jungled. They did not shut down Urgot. Instead he blissfully farmed and out leveled them despite their best efforts.
It is different if the champion is a ranged champion, and Urgot at that, who can just E and Q. None of the bruiser champions would be able to do that top, and that is the point of going duo. To shut down the bruiser that is going top.


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Wynden127

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Member

04-13-2012

There are, in fact, champions that excel at 2v1-ing, despite the enemies' best efforts. It requires sustainability, ability to farm under tower, and occasionally range.
Take Gangplank, for instance. He can Q to make sure he gets last hits, W to get out of sticky situations, E to get back into position.
Cho'gath. He's innately tanky, skill level depends on ability to farm in general - which results in his sustain - and he can silence/ knock up in order to enable/disable ganks.
Nidalee has range, sustain with her heal, and post-6, she is near ungankable.
etc. etc.

If you cannot entirely wreck the top laner and make sure they cannot get any cs - this generally means not killing the tower at your whim, because then they can farm in between their t2 tower and dead t1 tower - then they have the advantage.
You also have to consider that double bruiser top lane would share not only experience, but CS. A top lane and jungle would cause a lot more potential CS - the jungler free-farming.
The biggest thing for me would be that when you have perma-lanes, there is NO 'wild card' on your team. The enemy team can see everyone, and mia means mia. You know they're either coming to gank or they're grabbing buffs, and you only have to respond defensively at that point in time. In contrast, a jungler on your team exhibits pressure, which makes the enemy team rethink their dives, their movements, and how they lane.


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Nokthar

Member

04-13-2012

In my opinion, you need a jungler simply for jungle control, or as theses guys have been saying, a fair few people can handle a 2v1 lane, so your jungler gets to take all buffs and free farms, gets so much baron and dragon control. It is just too much to give up to run a 'possible' shutdown lane.


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Dane Belthound

Senior Member

04-13-2012

Having 2 top they share exp, CS, and enemy can see everyone. Split to top and jungle you have better controls, element of surprise unseeable champ, and better CS/exp.


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pwnerwithdaboner

Junior Member

04-13-2012

I think I good team comp with no jungler would be: Top Shen and someone else (ez, ashe, or GP would be a good for this comp), TF mid, and Pantheon and some stun/CC heavy supporter (someone like leona or alistar. Now you have Panth or TF ult in and lets say GP ult and then shen ult in. Hell have leona/alistar run with teleport and you can have a 5 man gank anywhere on the map as long as you drop wards.

This comp has no jungle but still keeps the other lanes on their toes. Imagine if you got good at the timing with TF and shen ult and have TF show up with like a a 500 shield and shen! Or magine an ashe arrow outta no where and then two ppl ult/teleport in. I think this would be a decent no jungler team comp. But yeah key is just ward everything including your own jungle so that means everyone needs to buy wards to insure that the enemy jungler doesnt steal your teams jungle and with proper dragon/baron wards you don't lose dragon/baron control which seems to be the main problem with out having a jungler. Also no smite means that stuff may be smite stolen by the enemy team which is the biggest problem i can see i guess.


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Sephïroth

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Senior Member

04-13-2012

I've had this happen a lot. I generally que with atleast one of my friends, and we almost always have a jungler and I'll solo top quite often or he will. We get countered with a double top often, but in the case of the champions I pick, generally I can still get experience and I will hit level 6 before them, usually resulting in a kill because the jungler can come up.

Also, in the case of two top versus one, with two people taking cs generally you will push the lane further than you'd like. Which is a terrible way to keep the enemy team from getting cs/exp. Once you get to the tower, most good players will get 3/4 last hits even with the tower capping minions.

Finally, it is inevitable, unless you que with 5 epic players, that someone will be losing their lane. In this case, without a jungle that tower can be gone before 6 minutes or less. A jungler has so many advantages that they far outway the little cs you can deny one player and the large amount of cs your team missing out because the jungle stays full.

I will concede one point that would make your theory worth while. If your team is stacked with early game characters, you can potentially destroy an enemy team and snowball your way to victory. Me and my friends tend to start trolling when we que 5 together, and we've done this. Its very effective to take top tower before 5, then migrate to get the other two towers before the team knows what happened. That being said, in any ranked or playing against someone who knows what they are doing... This won't happen.


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ADGarner

Senior Member

04-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnglshGentleman View Post
It is different if the champion is a ranged champion, and Urgot at that, who can just E and Q. None of the bruiser champions would be able to do that top, and that is the point of going duo. To shut down the bruiser that is going top.
This is still relying on the team to make mistakes. A smart team will adjust accordingly. I've even seen pro games that ended up with 2 guys on top and 1 guy on bot because of constant lane shuffling. At the end of the day it's a strategy that relies on your opponent making mistakes. At lower level play this is very powerful because regular joes make mistakes constantly so you can depend on this.

Very high elo players and especially professionals make few mistakes and it's not wise to base your strategy around them not attempting to compensate. Plus in order for the duo lane to shut down the single top laner they have to be pushing which exposes them to huge gank potential and causes the opposing mid lane to get blue buff while the jungler has blue as well and their jungler will have twice the red buff timers and twice the jungle space.

So in theory shutting down top lane means potentially making both the jungler and the middle lane in to little demons.


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King Kappa

Senior Member

04-13-2012

Mordekaiser will kill you 2v1 in a top lane, and he can still push both of you to your turret. I've done it. It's easy feed.


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