Atma's nerf makes literally no sense.

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hashinshin

Senior Member

04-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rooster Raiden View Post
The honest truth of the matter was that there didn't seem to be a reason to not buy Atma's.

I think that this is a small step in Riot balancing items and classes.

The key here is that I think Riot is learning from mistakes and is hoping to generate new item selection as well as pave the way for new design elements.
There is no reason to not buy deathcap on AP. no reason to not buy IE on your ranged carry. No reason to not buy shurelia's on your support. No reason to not buy aegis on your jungle tank.


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FHaze

Member

04-08-2012

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Originally Posted by xNixillis View Post
Riot be hatin' on the Tanky Deeps. Warmog nerf, Wit's End cost increase, Atma nerf, when will it end? ._.
This was completely uncalled for seriously. Now AP tops like rumble will now have an even greater advantage.


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xNixillis

Senior Member

04-08-2012

I think that one of the things Riot see in Tanky DPS items is their cost efficiency. Most of them give a respectable amount of stats for its cost. But seriously Riot, think about it. These are bruisers we're talking about here, they need to maximize their stats in order for them to do their job. They all need a decent amount of stats in order for them to even be viable late game where AD carries can still crit them for 500+.

They're not a full tank, and they're nowhere close to a damage-stacking carry, so why would you make their stats less efficient, when they need anything they can get?


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MichaelMacabre

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Senior Member

04-08-2012

i always find tanky ap is way more of a problem than tanky ad. probably even more so now with MR nerfs and ap buffs.


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Firellius

Senior Member

04-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
Why? Why is it hazardous? It hasn't proven to be a balance issue yet. So why is it hazardous?
Because if people who build pure offense aren't rewarded with defensive stats, people who build pure defense shouldn't be rewarded with offense stats.

Your character becomes too all-round powerful if you get offense from defense. You'd be exceptionally difficult to kill, but in the meantime, you also have high damage output.

Especially in the face of mages, who face this issue the most, that is plain unfair.

Also, as long as resistances remain the way they are, defense still trumps offense in most cases. Only crit builds can overcome that.


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hashinshin

Senior Member

04-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firellius View Post
Because if people who build pure offense aren't rewarded with defensive stats, people who build pure defense shouldn't be rewarded with offense stats.

Your character becomes too all-round powerful if you get offense from defense. You'd be exceptionally difficult to kill, but in the meantime, you also have high damage output.

Especially in the face of mages, who face this issue the most, that is plain unfair.

Also, as long as resistances remain the way they are, defense still trumps offense in most cases. Only crit builds can overcome that.
... lifesteal?

Last whisper? Void staff?

Additionally, your offense items scale bonus offense. PD makes IE better. Atma's makes warmogs better. Tada?


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Letkhar

Senior Member

04-08-2012

First time I've ever upvoted a Hashinshin post. 0.o


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Snx Phaceroll

Senior Member

04-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
Okay, if tanky damage is overpowered then it'd be overpowered... as a class.

Tanky damage is not overpowered.

But lets go in to detail, lets list three arguments as to why the Atma's nerf is ridiculous.

If you want to nerf key select champions (the most likely one being Lee Sin) then just... nerf them. By nerfing atma's you're nerfing: AD Sion. Wukong. Renekton. Volibear. Yorick. Xin Zhao. Trundle. Ect. Are these champions overpowered? Do they deserve to lose even 15 damage? But I digress, beyond nerfs to an entire class because you want to nerf maybe 1-2 champions lets figure out some REAL arguments against this.

Lets go in to more detail.
1. Atma's is for late game tanky damage. Who dominates late game? Ranged carries. Who has shown to be a near unstoppable force late game? Ranged carries. Know who has been dominating the tournament scene? Ranged carries. So whats with this fairly hefty hit to tanky damage?

What is the only class that can be consistently left off a team? The bruiser. The bruiser is the ONLY class that can 100% be left off a team and still be perfectly fine. AP top, AP mid, AD/support bot, tank in the jungle. This has shown to be a very consistent and powerful strategy. (Hell, support top support mid support bot is more powerful than a team with a bruiser!) Hell I'm fairly certain that any team without a ranged carry has gotten a 100% loss rate in tournaments. However, a team without a bruiser is likely over 50% win rate just due to how powerful double WotA is. (Yet no double WotA nerfs I notice.)

2. Don't give me "the item is OP and we don't want to balance people around it!" excuse. If it WAS OP then people that used it would be OP. That's like saying IE is OP because Kog'maw uses it. Better yet, frozen heart is OP because Ryze uses it. This argument is outright silly. If it WAS OP we'de be seeing more bruisers, more bruisers using it, or at least more PEOPLE using it. Seeing 0-2 atma's a game is a far cry from seeing 2-2 IE a game, 2-4 deathcap a game, 2-4 shurelia's a game.

Hell if atma's was OP and the entire class had to be balanced around it then perhaps even all bruisers would be building it? Why is it that many bruisers go with a maw/bloodthirster build? Are you suggesting these two items are MORE OP than atma's? And don't give me a "well then clearly you can live without atma's!" excuse cause thats more BS. That's like saying we can nerf IE because some ranged carries go BT/PD instead of IE/PD.

3.
And lastly: Remember when people complained bloodrazers was OP? (Yes at LoL's release bloodrazers was the best 1-slot damage item and was complained about.) Then what was it, trinity was OP? Then gunblade? Now Atma's? You notice that you only nerfed one of these items, and one of these items is absent from the competitive scene entirely (getting cutlass and never finishing gunblade is standard Jax procedure.) So you have to stop and ask yourself: Is bending over to whatever is FotM at the low ranks really what you want?

SOMETHING will always dominate the lower ranks, why is it a crime for tanky damage to do it? Should Blizzard be nerfing void rays because I find it difficult to beat? Terran bio-balls kick my ass, clear sign of OP. Maybe Capcam should consider some sweeping shoto clone nerfs because I find them ridiculous. I played DotA 2 once and some dude killed me. Don't remember his name, but we should probably go ahead and nerf the entire agility stat, from orbit. Its the only way to be sure.
Honestly its too cheap for the numbers it gives, and tanky dps are very strong in mid and late game, unlike ad carry who are quite average until late. Oh, Yorick and Voli are actually pretty op. And Yorick doesnt buy atmas btw. Oh and Atmas isnt for late game tank damage, its for midgame survivablity WITH great damage.

Anyway check out this thread for proof on atmas numbers being too high http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...ighlight=atmas


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hashinshin

Senior Member

04-08-2012

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Originally Posted by Phaceroll11 View Post
Honestly its too cheap for the numbers it gives, and tanky dps are very strong in mid and late game, unlike ad carry who are quite average until late. Oh, Yorick and Voli are actually pretty op. And Yorick doesnt buy atmas btw. Oh and Atmas isnt for late game tank damage, its for midgame survivablity WITH great damage.

Anyway check out this thread for proof on atmas numbers being too high http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...ighlight=atmas
By the time a ranged carry has IE + PD (Which would be your "mid game") they're shredding down anything that doesn't have 150+ armor.


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JuanDeages

Senior Member

04-08-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firellius View Post
But they didn't win, did they?

Tanky DPS appeared to be the strongest strategy.

EDIT: Anyway, in response to the OP: Your offense should not scale with your defense in any situation. That's hazardous to the game. That's why Atma's is getting nerfed.
Yet there is a ton of items that offer offence and defence: Abyssal Scepter, Frozen Mallet, Hexdrinker, Ionic Spark, Haunting Guise, Madred's Bloodrazor, Rod of Ages... just to name a few.

Atma's just so happens to be the best stat converting item, so that makes it OP I guess.