Morello Speaks on Dominion :-)

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Kiddalee

Senior Member

04-09-2012

1v1 champs fare better in Dominion because solo queue gameplay produces more 1v1 situations. Very good teamwork results in protectors and carries walking together more. So it is more a user-friendliness issue than a real balance issue.


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AAARRRRGGGGGHHHH

Senior Member

05-13-2012

necro cuz the people in this thread

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2117324

apparently never read this one


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Basoosh

Senior Member

05-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by AAARRRRGGGGGHHHH View Post
necro cuz the people in this thread

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2117324

apparently never read this one
Were we supposed to be excited over Morello's comments or something? While well intentioned, his comments change nothing. He's basically telling us that he knows Dominion is an existing game type. No news on what upcoming changes are in the works, if there's even anything in the works at all.


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lbgsloan

Senior Member

05-14-2012

Too little, too late. All this tells me is that Riot will tweak a few things SOME day, probably not until season 3 at the same time as they finally decide to roll in ranked.

Biggest Dominion design flaw is the map layout, specifically bottom lane. It's not fun to be there, the bottom laners have little influence on the game, the point is too close to the spawn making any success of the bottom laner largely pointless, and it takes too long to go from bottom to top preventing a winning bottom laner from ever leaving to assist other parts of the map. Basically whoever controls top will gank bottom 24/7, and it really doesn't matter who was winning or losing bottom lane after that. In most cases it's just a pointless 20-minute stalemate, and the bottom laners are little more than advanced turrets keeping the enemy team from simply walking in and taking bottom whenever. Actually, few people can survive 1v2s if they aren't under their turret so they actually can walk in and take it whenever.

It was always hard to get anyone to volunteer for bottom, but the final weeks of Dominion I played NO ONE, I mean nobody at all, would willingly go bottom. It was usually a game of chicken to see who would give in and go bottom. Even then, if anyone ever came to help a dead bottom laner, there was a good chance the previous bottom would ditch and leave the helping teammate chained there instead. This is a far, FAR bigger flaw than SR lacking an income stream for all 5 players. The bottom laner in DOM is basically stuck in an endless laning phase they can never truly win. And everyone knows it and wants no part of it unless you're cheesing it up with Urgot or Yorick. Along with other issues I have, this needs to be fixed before I'll bother playing LoL again. You cannot force one player on the team have less fun than everyone else.

And yes, one or two people will chime and say, "I like bottom!" That's terrific, but much like 0 cs supports the vast majority of players see it as a punishment.


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Dominus

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Senior Member

05-14-2012

if you believe champion balance is the reason dominion isn't released you probably still believe in santa clause. SR isn't any more balanced than dominion.


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AAARRRRGGGGGHHHH

Senior Member

05-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Basoosh View Post
Were we supposed to be excited over Morello's comments or something? While well intentioned, his comments change nothing. He's basically telling us that he knows Dominion is an existing game type. No news on what upcoming changes are in the works, if there's even anything in the works at all.
anyone who has really thought about why dominion is not as popular as classic has known the problems have little to do with rammus being op - the problems are all issues that stem from core aspects of dominion.

morello acknowledges that there are design flaws that are holding dominion back and keeping the game from being as balanced as they'd like it to be - sounds like riot's come to the same conclusion, no?

this is why riot went from making small changes to making none at all - they realized big changes needed to be made. small changes weren't going to make the game easier to learn and small changes weren't going to make the game look like it isn't a randomfest. this is also why we don't have ranked and why jabebot no longer works.

and well, you don't really casually mention that you're making big changes to a game. blizzard talks about this a lot in interviews, they try to avoid talking about things that are in development, because then if they have to go back and change those things then they become liars. nobody likes liars.




of course it's entirely possible that riot will indeed give up on trying to make dominion as popular as classic (honestly classic is so cleverly designed that i don't think it's possible), but i don't think riot is the sort of company that would just let all that invested time go to waste without at least making the game suitable enough for ranked. even halfassed 3v3 gets ranked.


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GrignardTS

Senior Member

05-14-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by AAARRRRGGGGGHHHH View Post
anyone who has really thought about why dominion is not as popular as classic has known the problems have little to do with rammus being op - the problems are all issues that stem from core aspects of dominion...morello acknowledges that there are design flaws that are holding dominion back and keeping the game from being as balanced as they'd like it to be - sounds like riot's come to the same conclusion, no?
What you say makes sense in line with what little they have released on the subject so far.

That being said, I don't understand. What design flaws? Sure, the map is tailored to champions with different kits, but the same can be said about SR.

The gaps existing between top tier and mid tier champions aren't so big to cause an issue (IMO). This is the only thing I can think of that would still be delaying ranked (Apart from lack of support)


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AAARRRRGGGGGHHHH

Senior Member

05-14-2012

It's got little to do with certain champions being stronger than others. That is an aspect of life - give people choices and surely one option will stand out as the best. Balancing requires dozens of balance iterations and halting new content (which Riot cannot do if they want to stay in business) - it's better to aim to make the game fun rather than balanced.


To see what Dominion does wrong, it's easier to look at what Classic does right.

The objective of Classic is to destroy the enemy nexus.
To destroy the enemy nexus, you must overwhelm the opponent to the point where you can lay siege to their turrets.
To overwhelm the opponent, you must have more power than they do.
To have more power than the opponent, you must have more gold.

There are some other factors into power, like champion matchups, team compositions, the Baron buff... but most games are more or less decided by who gained a gold advantage over the other. You rarely ever (if ever) win in Classic with a massive gold disadvantage.

A kill rewards 300g + assist gold. A dragon or turret kill gives gold to the entire team. Jungle creeps give some gold when killed. Minions bleed out gold coins when they are last hit. The entire game flows into the idea that gold = power = win. If you are ever unsure of what to do in Classic, accumulate power.... which usually means get gold.

Gold not only acts as a central goal for the game, but it acts as a measurement of victory. If you're getting gold and the other team isn't, you're winning. If you're getting 500 gold for one dragon kill and the other is only getting 300 for one champion kill, you come out on top in the end. Classic players will readily make that sacrifice because they know the value of their life is far less than the value of that dragon that sacrifice will secure.


However, in Dominion, gold is just handed out to players at a rapid rate. While some gold is given out for captures, kills, and minion kills, most players will be within 1k of each other (with the exception of bottom lane, who is typically 4-5k above the rest). A gold advantage is much harder to secure and thus it is a far smaller factor in the outcome of a game.

Without gold as the major determinant of the game, it becomes harder to know you've made the right decision. What do you lose when you choose to BD mid instead of go top? What do you gain by going bottom to gank? Are you willing to sacrifice your life for an objective, like a Classic player would sacrifice his for a dragon? How can you be sure that decision is the right one?

When you don't know if you've made the right decision, it's harder to consistently make the right decision. Which I guess is just a complicated way of saying Dominion is harder to learn because you don't know if you're playing correctly or not. Hell, even after 300ish games I still doubt my own decision making (I guess that's why my Elo isn't as big as Sauron's).




These days, games that are easier to learn are more likely to succeed than ones that aren't. It's how Classic was such a success, wasn't it?


There are still more issues but I don't really feel like explaining all of em lol, but gold/difficulty is the big one. If you happen to be in the fighting game scene, think of Classic as Street Fighter IV and think of Dominion as Marvel vs Capcom 3. The relationship between those two games and Dominion and Classic is eerily similar.