Which matchmaking 'issue' is the most important to you? (See post for more details!)

1) AFKs in Champion Select Lobby 4,840 36.31%
2) Duo-Queue Elo Disparities in Ranked 998 7.49%
3) Skilled Ranked Players in Normal Modes 657 4.93%
4) Premade Matching 663 4.97%
5) Transitioning from Normal to Ranked Mode 1,337 10.03%
6) Free to Play Champions in Ranked Mode 799 5.99%
7) Random Champions in Ranked Mode 643 4.82%
8) Provisional Matches in Ranked 713 5.35%
9) Duo Queue Prevalence in Ranked 415 3.11%
10) Level Disparities 636 4.77%
11) Team Margin of Victory 1,629 12.22%
Voters: 13330. You may not vote on this poll

After Hours with Matchmaking and Lyte

First Riot Post
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Nyutrig

Senior Member

09-02-2012

"Actually I was implying that matchmaking is working since Elo is working since even a "slightly-above-average-player" like me can easily turn games alone at lower Elo, even when playing the positions he is bad at on purpose. Since this thread is about matchmaking I guess my data is relevant ..."



sure it is relevant to the thread but you stated it in reply to me for some reason


"Do you really think Lyte wouldn't have the same data, but more, better and of any match?"



yes i do believe she has more data, and i would like it to be shared with the community. this is why i asked.


"Last time I checked this thread was about the very topic I posted about ..."


see above



"Well, if you browse this thread again you'll notice that Lyte did actually back up his findings. The issue with your request is that Lyte isn't allowed to post the data you asked for. That's why I gave you some bits to work on instead. I was of course fully aware that this wasn't what you actually wanted, since actual data would require you to justify or rethink your claims. What you are trying to do with your posts is to discredit the findings of Lyte. Problem is: even my data supports his actual findings, despite being small, incomplete and barely representative. Feel free to convince me of the opposite ..."

i wasnt claiming anything. i was merely asking why the data is kept secret.


"So you just learned a new word and wanted us all to know about it? Fun fact: confirmation bias has been discussed quite a few times in this thread."


yes i saw that it had. check my previous post. i dont know why you are getting aggresive about this.


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isobold

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Senior Member

09-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyutrig View Post
yes i do believe she has more data, and i would like it to be shared with the community. this is why i asked.
"Sharing the data isn't allowed since it would allow competitors to draw conclusions about the customer base Riot doesn't want to be public." is the obvious answer to this question. And I didn't even make it up: it has been given as an answer previously as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyutrig View Post
yes i saw that it had. check my previous post. i dont know why you are getting aggresive about this.
Read your own post again. Basically it says: everything discussed here is wrong, because you guys didn't take confirmation bias into account since you guys didn't know it even exists. At least that's the impression I get through your post and your links ...


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Nyutrig

Senior Member

09-03-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by isobold View Post
Read your own post again. Basically it says: everything discussed here is wrong, because you guys didn't take confirmation bias into account since you guys didn't know it even exists. At least that's the impression I get through your post and your links ...

i would disagree, all i said was to consider the articles i mentioned. i know that it was mentioned. did you read the articles? the impression that i get is that you are defending like a fanboy. would you agree? i doubt it. i would suggest learning how to have a discussion that isnt based on subtle personal attacks and is truely objective.


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isobold

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Senior Member

09-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyutrig View Post
did you read the articles?
Specifically because I read them I got the impression of your post I have, since you didn't post them for the thread but for Lyte. This is the kind of information I would recommend ordinary people to read to inform themselves about the topic.

Giving them as a reading recommendation to someone who has a BA (Psychology), MS (Cog. Neuroscience), and a PhD (Cog. Neuroscience) is like saying: you have learned nothing, please read up the basics of your profession ...

I wouldn't have reacted the way I did, had you chosen an interesting paper about the topic instead ...

Edit: oh, and fanboys typically don't raise criticism. Feel free to read up some of my latest posts. I do criticize Riot where I think it's needed ...
Atm my hottest topic are the ****ty broken login on this website, the way to short 10 seconds timer before matches and the nonexistence of any means for Emissaries to get chat moderation in pvp.net (not even through our community coordinators). This is ofc just my personal top 3 hottest topics ... and except for the presence-timer neither of these topics is on topic in this thread ...


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Lyte

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Lead Social Systems Designer

Follow RiotLyte on Twitter

09-04-2012
349 of 362 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyutrig View Post
since you are a psych major and all, have you considered that your research is done with a degree of confirmation bias?? in my opinion they should not have a "psych major" determining the changes involved in the matchmaking system, but instead a MATH major.

http://jeps.efpsa.org/blog/2012/06/0...vious-results/

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gn...in-psychology/

http://whywereason.com/2011/09/07/ps...ted-reasoning/

or you know you could.....ignore these studies.....

you cant argue with the sheer ammount of people who have the same or similar complaints with the matchmaking system. and if you are going to argue it, you should give examples with data. is there a reason that you withhold all of the data that you describe?
I lead teams of people that include mathematicians and statisticians who are experts in machine learning and predictive modeling. Team PB&J also has a new analyst starting that got his Masters in Bioinformatics and used to do cancer research.

I'm well aware of the common cognitive biases you mentioned which is why Team PB&J approaches problems very differently from traditional development teams. We have a hypothesis (null hypothesis and all) and use data to test the hypotheses repeatedly. Many times, we've had the null hypothesis come out victorious and many times we've had results that surprise us and counter intuition.

If you wonder why many players have the same complaints that may or may not be valid problems with the system... you may want to review some other cognitive biases as well


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Eledhan

Senior Member

09-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
I lead teams of people that include mathematicians and statisticians who are experts in machine learning and predictive modeling. Team PB&J also has a new analyst starting that got his Masters in Bioinformatics and used to do cancer research.

I'm well aware of the common cognitive biases you mentioned which is why Team PB&J approaches problems very differently from traditional development teams. We have a hypothesis (null hypothesis and all) and use data to test the hypotheses repeatedly. Many times, we've had the null hypothesis come out victorious and many times we've had results that surprise us and counter intuition.

If you wonder why many players have the same complaints that may or may not be valid problems with the system... you may want to review some other cognitive biases as well
Can you say...PWNED?

Seriuosly, though, Lyte... I really think you might just be my favorite Rioter, simply because you blend human behavior, morality (the scientific version, of course), logic, statistics, and factual evidence all into one wonderful department designed to make my gameplay experience as enjoyable as possible...

Of course, the rest of your team is wonderful also...I just don't know their names!!


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Ding an Sich

Senior Member

09-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyutrig View Post
i would disagree, all i said was to consider the articles i mentioned. i know that it was mentioned. did you read the articles? the impression that i get is that you are defending like a fanboy. would you agree? i doubt it. i would suggest learning how to have a discussion that isnt based on subtle personal attacks and is truely objective.

There is nothing more subjective then trying to pull off a persona, and then take a 180 by insulting someone with a silly insult at that.


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Lyte

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Lead Social Systems Designer

Follow RiotLyte on Twitter

09-04-2012
350 of 362 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eledhan View Post
Can you say...PWNED?

Seriuosly, though, Lyte... I really think you might just be my favorite Rioter, simply because you blend human behavior, morality (the scientific version, of course), logic, statistics, and factual evidence all into one wonderful department designed to make my gameplay experience as enjoyable as possible...

Of course, the rest of your team is wonderful also...I just don't know their names!!
Keep an eye out for threads that announce new Team PB&J features. We typically have the team members that worked on the feature do Q&A and introduce themselves to the community.

In the past couple weeks we've been focused on releasing Tribunal features, so awesome members like RiotAaronMike, RiotNinjaTabby and VonBurgermeister have been presenting work like this: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2380577


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Cegenaus

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Senior Member

09-04-2012

well this is a fun and lighthearted thread


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Eledhan

Senior Member

09-04-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
Keep an eye out for threads that announce new Team PB&J features. We typically have the team members that worked on the feature do Q&A and introduce themselves to the community.

In the past couple weeks we've been focused on releasing Tribunal features, so awesome members like RiotAaronMike, RiotNinjaTabby and VonBurgermeister have been presenting work like this: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2380577
I just want to respond again...I can't help myself!

Your thoughtful, factually supported, and informative posts are so valuable to my experience in League (along with the posts of many other Riot Staff, particularly Xypherous' and Morello's gameplay oriented posts as well as Iron Stylus' art related posts) because they help me understand JUST how much Riot knows what it is doing and how very little the average (or even the extraordinary) player does NOT understand.

I feel bad for you guys sometimes, since I can empathize with you so easily...As an accountant and business analyst for a non-profit organization (my church...we have 4,000+ members), my job (and all that it entails) is SEVERELY misunderstood, and people who would like to critique things that the church does or says (regarding finances and business matters) seem to generate statistics out of thin air...and get upset when the church doesn't actually share 100% of all the data it has at it's disposal...

So, because my experience is very similar (people involved care deeply about my organization, but have limited information to judge decisions made by leadership), I just wanna say thank you for doing it all with a SMILE!!!