Comparison between LoL and DOTA2

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ImboredxP

Senior Member

03-26-2012

As much as I would like to lurk more, I have to point out a few things

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryft Mith View Post
Are there any heroes in DotA that do not have "exciting ultimates?" You get your ult at level 6, and it is supposed to be extremely effective at your hero's role. If it wasn't, then what was the point of levelling to 6 if you're not going to put a point into it?
Drow and Centaur Warchief have pretty boring ultimates, as they are both passives and only increase your stats. On the other hand, there is plenty of heroes who would benefit much more by skipping the ultimate, such as Tiny, Priestess of the Moon, Mortred (occasionally), etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryft Mith View Post
Also, Riot does not bar tactics. Otherwise the community would looks down heavily upon BD'ing (it's banned in all DotA tournaments AFAIK), the meta would never change (because people would be extremely unwilling to try certain tactics for fear of being banned [the current fear of the same reason is a false fear because no one gets banned for not going with the meta, unless they did something else too]) without extremely heavy-handed changes to beloved/hated champions that would purposefully force the majority of the playerbase to break away from what they've known and try something new without them getting a choice in the matter, and no one likes that.
Backdooring in DotA is actually not even banned or is probably ban in only a few tournaments. There are plenty of games where the teams had attempted to backdoor, although I haven't watched that many recently.


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Ryft Mith

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Senior Member

03-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ImboredxP View Post
Drow and Centaur Warchief have pretty boring ultimates, as they are both passives and only increase your stats. On the other hand, there is plenty of heroes who would benefit much more by skipping the ultimate, such as Tiny, Priestess of the Moon, Mortred (occasionally), etc.
I kinda hate to tell you this, but when a character in any game has <6 active abilities and only one of them is not available when they begin, it either shows extremely poor design philosophy/direction or a complex strategy that many players simply will not get, when you restrict just one thing, and when that one thing becomes available choosing to get it instead of more of something that has been available since forever is bad. You are punishing the player for having the expectation that something that the game restricts them from doing right now will benefit them in the future when they have very few options available. I've never seen any LoL guides that do not recommend getting a champion's ult at lvl 6, unless that guide is for an extremely out-of-the-way type of playstyle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImboredxP View Post
Backdooring in DotA is actually not even banned or is probably ban in only a few tournaments. There are plenty of games where the teams had attempted to backdoor, although I haven't watched that many recently.
Back when I played DotA it was banned pretty darn hard - you BD'd more than once in a game, and you'd get put on the ban list. Mind you, I didn't play DotA for very long because of several IRL events that happened right around when it was getting popular on BNet.


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Fox P McCloud

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Senior Member

03-26-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryft Mith View Post
Please don't bring "anti-fun" into this, that term has been so convoluted by the community that any discussion about it will be pointless.
Very true, but I'm using it within the sense of what Zileas defined it as "fun fails to exceed anti-fun" in that a skill had to be fun to use for the player, but not horrendously demoralizing to the enemy player. IMHO, I don't buy this as a design decision on Riot's behalf, but it's their choice---I just hope they come around, one day--it'll allow for a lot more interesting mechanics.

Quote:
Also, Riot does not bar tactics. Otherwise the community would looks down heavily upon BD'ing (it's banned in all DotA tournaments AFAIK), the meta would never change (because people would be extremely unwilling to try certain tactics for fear of being banned [the current fear of the same reason is a false fear because no one gets banned for not going with the meta, unless they did something else too]) without extremely heavy-handed changes to beloved/hated champions that would purposefully force the majority of the playerbase to break away from what they've known and try something new without them getting a choice in the matter, and no one likes that.
I could have worded what I said better..."unique ability mechanics" would have probably been better....for example, Riot has ruled out "banishing" purely because "we tried it out and team-mates would miss their skillshots on banishes foes and feel bad" or not wanting to use a "chain" mechanic because "every other chain in the game currently encourages you to run away from it, not stay within its bounds"


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Ryft Mith

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Senior Member

03-27-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox P McCloud View Post
Very true, but I'm using it within the sense of what Zileas defined it as "fun fails to exceed anti-fun" in that a skill had to be fun to use for the player, but not horrendously demoralizing to the enemy player. IMHO, I don't buy this as a design decision on Riot's behalf, but it's their choice---I just hope they come around, one day--it'll allow for a lot more interesting mechanics.
I think the reasoning behind Zileas's "anti-fun" is that any ability used by a player on another player had to either not feel that unfair or have at least some counterplay. While I agree with this on principle, I don't think that they are necessarily going about it in the right way. A lot of stuff that the community is saying about new champ's abilities being anti-fun (such as Nautilus's ult, which actually does have some counterplay, in that moving allows you to change both its trajectory and time before collision) is at least based on some truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox P McCloud View Post
I could have worded what I said better..."unique ability mechanics" would have probably been better....for example, Riot has ruled out "banishing" purely because "we tried it out and team-mates would miss their skillshots on banishes foes and feel bad" or not wanting to use a "chain" mechanic because "every other chain in the game currently encourages you to run away from it, not stay within its bounds"
Ahh, that does make more sense. I have seen Xypherous's posts regarding attempted mechanics, and honestly a lot of them were fascinating. But yeah, I do think the game would be more interesting if they had both more types of CC and different types of skillshots/targetting mechanics.

They have been trying to introduce more types of CC recently, however, with Ahri's charm and Lulu's whimsy. But it's going to be a long road ahead of them if they plan on making more champions with those types of CC, because they effectively have 2 options here: make more champions with those types of CC, (and they've been getting a lot of flak from the community recently for releasing too many new champions and not enough fixes for old bugs) or to retrofit old champions with those types of CC. (which would not be taken well by the community at all) And as far as new skillshots go, such as curved ones, I think their primary argument against those involves the user seeing them as unpredictable, but I think that if they did them correctly, it would be fine. And as far as new targetting mechanics go, Lulu's Glitterlance and Help Pix! used together create an entirely new kind of skillshot: one that does not originate from your champion. Of course, it could be argued that Orianna already does that with her ball. (especially with her new GUI changes)