My theory on Dominion regarding ranked.

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ProSauce VT

Senior Member

03-21-2012

First let me say; I love the Dominion game mode and want it to flourish as I know it can.

That being said. I do not believe that Dominion can ever truly have ranked or have a significant place in competitive gaming as it is now. The reason unfortunately is more a flaw with the game engine than the actual map. To be specific it has to do with the ban system and what that entails.

In SR there is a significant difference between tournament banning and non-tournament banning. In non-tournament your team will simply ban those champions that are considered the easiest to be effective with. In tournament your team will ban the champs the opposing team is either good with or has a specific combo/strats that can annihilate your teams combo/strats. There are no must- bans in tournament SR (although it did seem Shen was coming close to that stasis in the last championship). This type of ban system adds another layer of strategy and forces the top teams to have to constantly change or come up with new strats. In other words the ban system in SR is a good thing.

Now on Dominion its a different matter entirely. The issue is: the team that is first pick has an unfair advantage. This is based upon a couple facts and/or assumptions.

- Both teams are equally skilled and are some of the best Dominion players in the world.

- For the champions going top: Rammus/Kassadin/Urgot (or insert 3 other champions if you wish) are considered must ban because for all intensive purposes they break the game. Mainly they are a must ban for a specific ability they possess. Rammus for his Q W and E. Kass for his R (ult). Urgot for his passive. To put it into perspective take the aforementioned abilities/passive and trade them for any other in the same category (meaning trade Kass ult for anyone elses ult. Rammus Q for anyone elses Q etc.) You would find they are not ban worthy anymore and simply are "viable". Also if you put any of these abilities on any other champ then they would become must-ban. To understand this: insert a champion you feel is the worst to be played on dominion and then give them Kassadin's ult.

- Both teams are willing to do anything, short of cheating, to win.

So using this criteria; the team who has first pick automatically has an unfair advantage because they do not have to ban these three. That burden falls to the team who has second pick. Thus the team with first pick can tactically ban champions the opposing team is strong with while the team who has second pick is forced to ban these 3 champions or face them in tournament play leaving the team with 1st pick free reign of who and what strat they will use.

As long as this discrepancy exists I do not feel that Dominion will ever have ranked or have any place in the competitive scene.


Now there are some common counter-arguments and I will go over them here as well.

1. Argument: Rammus/Kassadin/Urgot aren't that game breaking.
Counter-argument: were talking about the most skilled players in the world. They can play them to there full potential which is near-unlimited in Dominion.

2. Argument: Rammus/Kassadin/Urgot are counter-able.
Counter-argument: No they really aren't but since I don't want to spend hours explaining why here is an answer if they were able to be countered.
Yes they can be countered with very specific item/champion comps etc but the fact is you are having to choose specific champions/builds thus limiting exactly what kinds of strats you are able to use as well as these 3 are strong against any types of comp so even if you devote 2 champions to shutting down the opposing team's champion; you still have to contend with the 3 others whom may naturally be able to counter you.

3. Argument: Just have neither team ban these 3.
Counter-argument: While this would make it into a 1st pick chooses Rammus/Kassadin/Urgot and 2nd picks choose the other two; that still does not solve the problem. Indeed in many ways it intensifies it as every game you will see Rammus/Kassadin/Urgot which is definitely not a good display of strategy or a good reflection of the game-mode itself. Especially since it would come down to whom can play these 3 the best or can counter these 3 specific champions the best.
3 champions out of 90+ possible champions should not decide the meta.

4. Argument: Make them unavailable in Dominon.
Counter-argument: On what grounds are you justifying this? After-all if you say because they have so much movement then should Zilean/Shyvana also be unavailable? If you say because they are so strong in team-fights then should (insert champion here) also be made unavailable? Once you start making champions unavailable in one mode you have to have grounds and justification for doing so that can be clearly used to judge all champions upon. It is simply not possible at this point to do so.

Now with all this being said; I do have my own argument of how they(Riot) could make it viable for ranked and competitive play in general.
They need to have a Dominion Rammus/Kassadin/Urgot (or insert champion here) and a SR Rammus/Kassadin/Urgot (or insert champion here).

Please feel free to comment on the above but if you are annoyed that I consider Rammus/Kassadin/Urgot to be must ban instead of insert champion here then simply insert a given champion you feel is a must-ban in place of those 3 and read thru it again. I do not wish for this to become an argument over whom is more ban worthy as that is not the reason of this post.

TL;DR Your a lazy idiot whom doesn't deserve my wisdom.


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inFe eD

Senior Member

03-21-2012

I take it you've never drafted a serious match before. There's a lot more intricacy that goes into banning than you think. Say that there are 3 completely imbalanced heroes that basically autowin the game. The team that picks second deliberately leaves all 3 options open, so the other team is forced to ban some or all of these lest the second pick gets 2 out of the 3 broken heroes. This is a very basic example, not taking into consideration that some teams may have specific heroes they are known for, shifting hero tiers, and the like. You obviously didn't put much thought into this post.

Quote:
TL;DR Your a lazy idiot whom doesn't deserve my wisdom.
Irony.


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Aparkhurst

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Senior Member

03-21-2012

Came in to read about ranked mode, read a bunch of ill-conceived rhetoric about tournament picks/bans.


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ProSauce VT

Senior Member

03-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by inFe eD View Post
I take it you've never drafted a serious match before. There's a lot more intricacy that goes into banning than you think. Say that there are 3 completely imbalanced heroes that basically autowin the game. The team that picks second deliberately leaves all 3 options open, so the other team is forced to ban some or all of these lest the second pick gets 2 out of the 3 broken heroes. This is a very basic example, not taking into consideration that some teams may have specific heroes they are known for, shifting hero tiers, and the like. You obviously didn't put much thought into this post.

Irony.
I already covered this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vastatio Tactics View Post

3. Argument: Just have neither team ban these 3.
Counter-argument: While this would make it into a 1st pick chooses Rammus/Kassadin/Urgot and 2nd picks choose the other two; that still does not solve the problem. Indeed in many ways it intensifies it as every game you will see Rammus/Kassadin/Urgot which is definitely not a good display of strategy or a good reflection of the game-mode itself. Especially since it would come down to whom can play these 3 the best or can counter these 3 specific champions the best.
3 champions out of 90+ possible champions should not decide the meta.
To expand upon this: a simple question: in SR are there 3 champions that every team will ban every time no matter whom they are up against?

Also why is it Rammus and Kassadin are banned almost every game in the NESL tournaments if teams are only basing there bans on what they know the opposing team can play well?


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Wawix

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Senior Member

03-21-2012

Dominion is viable in ranked as it is. Adding one more ban per team wouldnt hurt, though.


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inFe eD

Senior Member

03-21-2012

Quote:
3. Argument: Just have neither team ban these 3.
Counter-argument: While this would make it into a 1st pick chooses Rammus/Kassadin/Urgot and 2nd picks choose the other two; that still does not solve the problem. Indeed in many ways it intensifies it as every game you will see Rammus/Kassadin/Urgot which is definitely not a good display of strategy or a good reflection of the game-mode itself. Especially since it would come down to whom can play these 3 the best or can counter these 3 specific champions the best.
3 champions out of 90+ possible champions should not decide the meta.
Your situation is idiotic. No team that actually wants to win will let a team have 2/3 of the OP heroes unless they get outdrafted badly, and in that case they basically deserve to lose. That's not even close to what I said.

They sure as hell aren't going to have a 'gentleman's agreement' not to ban certain heroes either, because then winning games really would be decided by who has the advantage in pick order. Again, your lack of experience in competitive drafting is showing.


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ProSauce VT

Senior Member

03-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by inFe eD View Post
Your situation is idiotic. No team that actually wants to win will let a team have 2/3 of the OP heroes unless they get outdrafted badly, and in that case they basically deserve to lose. Again, your lack of experience in competitive drafting is showing.
Your missing my point. It isn't the fact that one team or the other will get 1 or 2 of said champions. Its the fact that the 1st pick or 2nd picks are forced to choose said champions. I understand what you are getting at in saying the 2nd pick leaves all 3 bans open. That being said once again: a simple question: in SR are there 3 champions that every team will ban every time no matter whom they are up against and why is it Rammus and Kassadin are banned almost every game in the NESL tournaments if teams are only basing there bans on what they know the opposing team can play?

Ultimately if dominion ranked were to come about then it would be based around these 2 or 3 champions as it is now. I do not believe that riot or that any competitive host would be able to take such a game mode seriously in that case.


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Airfan

Junior Member

03-21-2012

How is having ranked available related to tournament play again?


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Geryth

Senior Member

03-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vastatio Tactics View Post
. . . for all intensive purposes they break. . .
*intents and purposes.

I'm not sure what an intensive purpose is, but I'm sure if used in context it would have something to do with ***.


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CyrisAeon

Member

03-21-2012

OP, you wrote a lot, but your basic game theory skills are not as refined as you'd like to think they are.


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