0cs support and solo queue norm

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OwlMechanic

Senior Member

03-20-2012

So after playing about 1-200 games testing the different playstyles i've come to realize something.

0CS support bottom only works better than giving some cs to the support (say 1/4 to 1/3) in the case of specific champs when playing 5v5 unranked solo.

For example,

Soraka should not be played completely 0cs
Leona should be played 0cs
Alister should be played 0cs
Janna should be played either 100%CS or no CS
Shen and Galio (often solo tops) should never be 0cs when supporting
Sona should be 0cs.
Taric should have a very low, but present amount of cs, like 1/8-1/5 the carry (unless you are getting fed assists).

The reasoning behind this is that some champs turn into game changing supports only after achieving a core build nearly unattainable when going full support.

The reason this isnt necessary when playing ranked or seen in competitive matches is because those teams HAVE the coordination and communication to either ensure their bottom ranged ad carries and is protected in team fights, and that the support will get fed assists to successful ganks.

The reason some CS IS necessary in solo queue unranked is due to the lack of coordination possible through type chatting between strangers.

Taric with chalice and aegis early will carry everyone on your team (by allowing them to survive or giving your teammates kills) far more easily than a taric with philo and heart of gold.

Soraka with mana item+rylais in norms is what i would classify as a support carry since she can easily be a powerhouse with enormous single target and aoe slows/debuffs/and strong heals, also, she works great with mejais if you would like to go that route. (completely ignoring her q is ignoring one of the most op overbuffed skills in the game if you know how to not push, and how to push when you want to).

Alister can get away with 0cs and even get away with being underleveled because his strength lies in ultra high cc (unchanged by items) same with leona, and they will usually get the gold anyway if they're half decent because they have high gank potential, which means high assist gold.

The bottom line?


Thought should be given both by the ad carry and the support champ as to WHY they are going 0CS.

Ranged AD's often fail to carry due to a lack of coordination in protecting said carry, and the fact that whether you're carrying or not, norms will always focus the (in priority order) the closest one to them, the ranged ad carry, the ap. That means half the games played wind up with a dead but farmed ad carry and a support that doesnt have the items to be able to support their team (not just you in lane) as the champ they chose.


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trento007

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03-20-2012

I often play Shen as a support bottom (or solo top) in normal games and give all the minions to my AD carry, who I hope is at least competent at last hitting. I've been trying gold per 10 quints and even seals while getting a heart of gold as soon as possible. In a good game I can go 2-2-20 if I have good teammates and still have like 6 creepscore at the end while thoroughly scaring my enemies every time I show up.

While the carry leaves I can usually stay back and farm some, farming with Shen is easy as his Q and his passive help in last hitting. Not harassed I can constantly autoattack and get 5 out of 6 of the minions the majority of the time, pushing the lane a bit while waiting for my carry to come back.

With the minions I do get while my carry is out I can do pretty well along with the extra GP10. But for me to have a good presence in the game I do need some assists if I am going for little to no CS.


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OwlMechanic

Senior Member

03-20-2012

Agreed it can be done with a decent score (to above poster) usually low kills lots of assists low cs, but at the same time, some cs (so for shen) you can build health earlier means your heals in lane are stronger, and your team fight survivability and damaging presence are higher. It's also something to note that a strong support can often deny the other bot lane gold entirely since you can focus on harassing not getting ALL the cs. Gold denied imo is as good as gold gained.

It's not that 0CS is terrible, it's that it's (from experience) doesnt nearly as consistently WIN, esp because you don't have the option to turn into a pseudo carry if the person you are supporting fails to carry or if you have a leaver.

This sort of thing happens all the time when i'm playing shen/soraka, sometimes you just have a subpar carry, and if anyone on your team is gonna be subpar it's probably going to be the ranged AD or the AP mid because most players enjoy playing them, and is specifically attractive to bad players because they equate their own kills with team wins more exclusively than someone who would be willing to play whatever the team requires.


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Arcian Darkrobe

Junior Member

03-20-2012

I think the OP fails to realize, that most of the supports' gp income should come from gp/5 items, and kills in lane. (aka assists) So it really stresses the importance of a solid AD ranged carry,and maybe some ganks from the jungler/mid into bot lane, to secure that income. The support NEVER has a reason to intentionally grab cs, during the laning phase, unless that cs would goto the tower, or otherwise be missed. (i.e. carry is not there, for w/e reason)

I honestly think, people fail to realize, just how much each spot on the team, hinges on the others....


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DMPuffy

Senior Member

03-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcian Darkrobe View Post
I think the OP fails to realize, that most of the supports' gp income should come from gp/5 items, and kills in lane. (aka assists) So it really stresses the importance of a solid AD ranged carry,and maybe some ganks from the jungler/mid into bot lane, to secure that income. The support NEVER has a reason to intentionally grab cs, during the laning phase, unless that cs would goto the tower, or otherwise be missed. (i.e. carry is not there, for w/e reason)

I honestly think, people fail to realize, just how much each spot on the team, hinges on the others....
If a Sustain support is not low and wants to last-hit while the AD carry is recalling, then they certainly should. Also, any last-hit they see the AD carry WILL miss (two minions dying simultaneously) they should also take, as you stated. But those are the only two reasons I can think of.

Gangplank, Shen, and other non-conventional supports that need farm should just not be used in solo queue. All you are going to do is piss off your random laning partner by taking their CS.


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Strikerfox

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Senior Member

03-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonards View Post
If a Sustain support is not low and wants to last-hit while the AD carry is recalling, then they certainly should. Also, any last-hit they see the AD carry WILL miss (two minions dying simultaneously) they should also take, as you stated. But those are the only two reasons I can think of.

Gangplank, Shen, and other non-conventional supports that need farm should just not be used in solo queue. All you are going to do is piss off your random laning partner by taking their CS.
my opinion is the exact opposite. As the op mentioned, in solo normals there is a lag in communication, not to mention an unfamiliar laning partner. I've run into too many bad situations from the ad initiating and then running away, leaving me to die. I think an unconventional support who has some bite or sustain is perfect for solo normals. I'm thinking Shen, cho, blitz, and maokai. You can start off as cc support and if your ad is good, great. grab your heart of gold and Phil stone. If the ad is too timid or just plain bad, there are other roles you can fill. I can usually serve up a handful of kills to my ad early on with any of those champs. Ultimately wouldn't you rather have champ kills than minion kills?


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trento007

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03-21-2012

Quote:
I've run into too many bad situations from the ad initiating and then running away, leaving me to die.
I hate it when that happens... That is why Shen is awesome, just dash away. Besides, usually it is me catching the enemy who is out of place and my carry killing them while the other guy runs or stupidly tries to avenge the death of his comrade.

Yes champ kills are awesome. And I think the unconventional supports are still viable choices.


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OwlMechanic

Senior Member

03-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcian Darkrobe View Post
I think the OP fails to realize, that most of the supports' gp income should come from gp/5 items, and kills in lane. (aka assists) So it really stresses the importance of a solid AD ranged carry,and maybe some ganks from the jungler/mid into bot lane, to secure that income. The support NEVER has a reason to intentionally grab cs, during the laning phase, unless that cs would goto the tower, or otherwise be missed. (i.e. carry is not there, for w/e reason)

I honestly think, people fail to realize, just how much each spot on the team, hinges on the others....
This is what i am referring to when some support give up their quote un quote core builds (in my mind) for 'the' support build (That is, philo, hog, wards and various tanky items+shurelyas)

I think certain supports are capable of using the support build and being virtually indistinguishable from a 'stronger' build (such as sona/alister) whose power really comes from the unchanging effects of their abilities.

However, on a character like soraka who is incredibly good at lane sustain... but not actually securing lane kills for their lane partner (say unlike alister/leona/sona) should not bother with the support build, because buying philo/hog actually puts a more pivotal role out of reach at the point in the game where you have time to alter the course of the game (early/mid game teamfights).

Just remember though, i only feel this way because 90% of solo norms you cannot rely on the combination of a team that understands how to protect their ad carry, and an ad carry that knows how to protect themselves while still dealing damage. In a game with full communication, or real trust in the quality of the ad carry, then full support will almost always be stronger because it affords you free ward money while still giving your ad all the gold.


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DMPuffy

Senior Member

03-21-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by trento007 View Post
I hate it when that happens... That is why Shen is awesome, just dash away. Besides, usually it is me catching the enemy who is out of place and my carry killing them while the other guy runs or stupidly tries to avenge the death of his comrade.

Yes champ kills are awesome. And I think the unconventional supports are still viable choices.
Sure, they're viable and incredibly fun. But if you play them, don't expect your lane-mate to understand how to react to how aggressive you have to be for these supports to actually do anything useful. People often will sit too far back and play too passively, then you just end up going in and taunting two people, losing 75% of your HP and then running away without your AD actually helping.

So, I just play Janna and babysit the AD when I am not duoing with them. Can't rely on them.