How would you rate this idea?

10 4,632 70.53%
9 550 8.38%
8 491 7.48%
7 236 3.59%
6 71 1.08%
5 74 1.13%
4 35 0.53%
3 27 0.41%
2 13 0.20%
1 438 6.67%
Voters: 6567. You may not vote on this poll

Riot, Please, can we Eradicate the Noobs?: An Effective Way to Educate the Masses

First Riot Post
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sonntG

Senior Member

08-08-2010

instead of posting all these ideas that would take ages of server downtime to make, why not just play practice games with friends that don't suck IRL.. it will save time, money, you l2p the champ without enraging other people, and your friend can give you pointers as you succeed/fail.


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Predinchuk

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Senior Member

08-09-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonntG View Post
instead of posting all these ideas that would take ages of server downtime to make, why not just play practice games with friends that don't suck IRL.. it will save time, money, you l2p the champ without enraging other people, and your friend can give you pointers as you succeed/fail.
You know what, sonntG, this is probably how it SHOULD work.

But obviously it doesn't work this way, or else you wouldn't hear horror stories about "Low ELO Hell" where people constantly steal kills from the carry, don't use wards, don't gank as a team, don't push, don't buy elixirs, and etc.

Obviously, something needs to be done about this problem.


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Oshobnem

Member

08-09-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Predinchuk View Post
My main aim for the challenges was to do one of two things;
1 - Make the challenges simple to program bots for
2 - Create head-to-head challenges for ones that were too complicated to make bots for.

I realized afterwards that the skillshot challenge would be difficult to program, so I edited it to include the possibility of being head-to-head.
Alright, cool. The possibility to do these head-to-head does account for the lack of intelligent bots. Maybe they could put up simple bots for offline practice, but don't allow these to pose any sort of achievements.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Predinchuk View Post
Well, I don't think that the challenges should be champion-specific. I have yet to go back and edit them all so that they're all as ambiguous towards specific champs as possible, and more geared towards roles played by specific groups of champs (tanks, carries, supports, etc.). However, I have included the possibility of utilizing in-game tutorials/challenges as champion spotlights, which would obviously be about as champion specific as it gets. Also, I liked the idea of having leader boards, ELO, and tracked stats for the challenges as well, so I believe I have something like that in the original post.
Gotcha. The inconsistency was what confused me. My recommendation would be to fix that on your original post to cause less confusion. I figure you shouldn't need any actual restrictions here (unless the champion is incapable of performing the challenge in the case of challenges such as skill shots), and possibly include recommended champions for first-time people who want to see the concept in action.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Predinchuk View Post
I believe Riot has commented on this in the past, and they're not willing to allow players to host games. I forget why, but I think it had something to do with the fraud factor and keeping their source code a secret, but I know nothing of this technical jargon, so I'm just going to butt out on that topic and leave it at that.
I believe fraud would be the main concern here. As long as we can create no tangible benefits (such as IP) for offline play, I believe that there should be no problems with being able to practice offline. I don't know - it would be nice if there was an offline and/or peer-to-peer option here. I see this as being the main blocker from a technical standpoint on this feature, since not having an offline solution would likely aggravate the server issues they've been having, since a lot of people would be going into what is equivalent to very small practice games.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Predinchuk View Post
I think the global ults would best be covered as a series of mini-games, otherwise as the final challenge within the champion spotlight challenges. The map-wide ults like Ashe's and Ez's are included in the skill shot challenge.

However, some of those global ult challenges sound pretty good and I would enjoy playing them, I just tried to leave champion-specific challenges out. Perhaps there could be a general "global ult" challenge that limited your champion selection to only those with "global ults." These champs would have to use their global ults to push down a tower in each line, all the while having no casualties on their team as well as no turrets lost.
Agreed. I was thinking Ashe and Ez were worthy of being pointed out as global ults for shots through fog of war or across lanes. I guess these really end up being more "champion spotlights", which is sort of nebulous at the moment. An example of how in-depth those spotlights go might be good. Like, what would the Master Yi champion spotlight consist of? I'm not a Yi player, so my best guess right now would be using alpha strike to avoid certain attacks, maybe some scenario involving when to use meditate effectively in battle, and then a scenario where you have to use highlander/wuju properly and chain the cooldown resets? Maybe some scenario that would be against a high CC team and effectively dealing with that? If the goal is to make sure the player is not completely incompetent as the champion, you should need to highlight some places where the champion has issues and have the player attempt to overcome these weaknesses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Predinchuk View Post
I think I have this challenge covered over a few of my others, including effective jungling and pushing a tower effectively. I believe that if the other (more isolated) challenges are completed, a situation like the one you listed above would be simple for a player to handle in a real game.
I pretty much got this idea off of the rest of the forum discussion about calling MIA's. Calling MIA's is nice, but people should also be map aware. Maybe another challenge to call MIA's, where you lane against a bot and have to type MIA when someone leaves a lane within 10 seconds or something


Quote:
Originally Posted by Predinchuk View Post
This one seems like it would be difficult to program, however I've attempted to cover it as much as possible by placing the emphasis on protecting your tower while jungling to break a "mini inhibitor" that must be broken before the tower can be attacked. You will, of course, have a poor-pushing bot in your lane up against a strong-pushing bot opposing them.
Yea. Mostly I was just thinking about setting up a practice mode for each champ to learn how to jungle with that champ. This is the main reason I miss practice games being able to only hold 1 player - because I would use them to practice my jungle routes. This would provide an alternate mode and if offline mode was implemented, jungling could be practiced again.

The extra difficulty stuff was mostly just flavor and thoughts of what issues I run into when jungling. Would not put it as a requirement for an initial run of this, but would be a neat feature down the road.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Predinchuk View Post
I like the co-op aspect of collectively gathering an amount, as it is a very real problem faced by players, especially solo-queue players (my brother and I often lane together and we never attempt to last-hit the same minion unless there's nothing else nearby to hit).
A lot of these suggestions stem from where I have run into difficulties myself and would like to practice such skills. So, I'm glad you like that one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Predinchuk View Post
This has been quite helpful, and I hope you're not shy if you notice something else within my post that should be changed. Also, go ahead and reply to my replies if you still disagree and think that I haven't read them closely enough, I always love a good-natured intellectual argument
As you likely notice, not too much disagreement here =) Mostly suggestions for improved clarification =)

Also had another idea:

1.) Kiting
Your champion is at low HP and has red buff (can remove this at higher difficulties). A single bot is chasing you and trying to kill you. Your towers are nowhere nearby and the bot chasing doesn't have any real chase moves (or maybe they do on harder difficulties) but is slightly faster than you, so they will catch you, unless you apply the red buff (or use other kiting moves), in which case they won't be able to catch you. You win if you kill them (or maybe just get away at lower difficulties). You lose if you die.


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Predinchuk

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Senior Member

08-09-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oshobnem View Post
Alright, cool. The possibility to do these head-to-head does account for the lack of intelligent bots. Maybe they could put up simple bots for offline practice, but don't allow these to pose any sort of achievements.
I agree with putting up bots for offline practice, but Riot has made it clear that they have no future plans to allow any sort of offline play :S They call it security, I call it paranoia. However, I'm not fully aware of the possible consequences of offering offline play, so I don't know enough to say anything intelligent about the topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oshobnem View Post
Gotcha. The inconsistency was what confused me. My recommendation would be to fix that on your original post to cause less confusion. I figure you shouldn't need any actual restrictions here (unless the champion is incapable of performing the challenge in the case of challenges such as skill shots), and possibly include recommended champions for first-time people who want to see the concept in action.
I've finally changed the OP in order to have uniform consistency of ambiguity to champion selection across all challenges. If you notice anything that I've missed, I would love it if you were to alert me I think that for each challenge, there would be a set of champions that could be played, with obvious characters left out (ie: leave Annie out of the tanking challenges; tank Annie is not a recommended game play style).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oshobnem View Post
I believe fraud would be the main concern here. As long as we can create no tangible benefits (such as IP) for offline play, I believe that there should be no problems with being able to practice offline. I don't know - it would be nice if there was an offline and/or peer-to-peer option here. I see this as being the main blocker from a technical standpoint on this feature, since not having an offline solution would likely aggravate the server issues they've been having, since a lot of people would be going into what is equivalent to very small practice games.
I understand the lag issue, but hopefully if Riot implements the idea, they'll upgrade their service to allow for it. If they wish for their game to grow, they'll be on top of that already, anyways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oshobnem View Post
Agreed. I was thinking Ashe and Ez were worthy of being pointed out as global ults for shots through fog of war or across lanes. I guess these really end up being more "champion spotlights", which is sort of nebulous at the moment. An example of how in-depth those spotlights go might be good. Like, what would the Master Yi champion spotlight consist of? I'm not a Yi player, so my best guess right now would be using alpha strike to avoid certain attacks, maybe some scenario involving when to use meditate effectively in battle, and then a scenario where you have to use highlander/wuju properly and chain the cooldown resets? Maybe some scenario that would be against a high CC team and effectively dealing with that? If the goal is to make sure the player is not completely incompetent as the champion, you should need to highlight some places where the champion has issues and have the player attempt to overcome these weaknesses.
I think that the champion spotlights would start off very basic, and as the challenge went on, more difficult tasks would be added. I once played against a master Yi who got First blood by using Alpha strike to hit me (in front of my turret), chain to my badly injured teammate (who was behind the turret), killing them, and then to my minions coming down the stairs (this was on TT). He then ran off into the bushes and took no turret hits. I was amazed, and that is still the most impressive kill I've ever seen, which was about a good month or two ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oshobnem View Post
I pretty much got this idea off of the rest of the forum discussion about calling MIA's. Calling MIA's is nice, but people should also be map aware. Maybe another challenge to call MIA's, where you lane against a bot and have to type MIA when someone leaves a lane within 10 seconds or something
I've added this idea into the original thread, thanks for the recommendation!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oshobnem View Post
Yea. Mostly I was just thinking about setting up a practice mode for each champ to learn how to jungle with that champ. This is the main reason I miss practice games being able to only hold 1 player - because I would use them to practice my jungle routes. This would provide an alternate mode and if offline mode was implemented, jungling could be practiced again.

The extra difficulty stuff was mostly just flavor and thoughts of what issues I run into when jungling. Would not put it as a requirement for an initial run of this, but would be a neat feature down the road.
It could be worth it to add a jungle-challenge, where you would have to completely whipe out your side of the jungle. I'll consider doing this later, but I think that running a practice game could accomplish the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oshobnem View Post
A lot of these suggestions stem from where I have run into difficulties myself and would like to practice such skills. So, I'm glad you like that one.
I like pretty much all of your ideas :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oshobnem View Post
As you likely notice, not too much disagreement here =) Mostly suggestions for improved clarification =)
And I thank you for that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oshobnem View Post
Also had another idea:

1.) Kiting
Your champion is at low HP and has red buff (can remove this at higher difficulties). A single bot is chasing you and trying to kill you. Your towers are nowhere nearby and the bot chasing doesn't have any real chase moves (or maybe they do on harder difficulties) but is slightly faster than you, so they will catch you, unless you apply the red buff (or use other kiting moves), in which case they won't be able to catch you. You win if you kill them (or maybe just get away at lower difficulties). You lose if you die.
One word; INCORPORATEDDDDD

And a few more words; Thank you very much for your feedback and support Feel free to spread the word and refer your friends to this thread. The more hits we get, the better the chances that Riot takes us seriously


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UmbrellaExile

Senior Member

08-09-2010

This is an excellent discussion, you've touched on pretty much everything that keeps coming up in games with some of my newer friends. What about something that teaches you that death is a natural part of life?

You Can't Save Them All

Several scenarios where an ally bot, or several, are jumped by the enemy team and start running. In all of these scenarios, your teammates are far away, and you'd be running into a 5v2 if you try and save your teammate. I've had so many teammates "try and save me" when they should really just learn to hold back, so what if the goal was simply for one of you two to live (or the bot can be the carry, and you can specifically shoot for them living, whether or not you want to)


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Oshobnem

Member

08-09-2010

Updates look good!

One little nitpicky thing =)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Predinchuk View Post
2. SURVIVAL AGAINST MAGIC DAMAGE
...

5. SURVIVAL AGAINST PHYSICAL DAMAGE
This should be 3. Unless this is a Monty Python joke

Glad you're liking the feedback. If I come up with any more ideas, I will definitely post them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UmbrellaExile View Post
This is an excellent discussion, you've touched on pretty much everything that keeps coming up in games with some of my newer friends. What about something that teaches you that death is a natural part of life?

You Can't Save Them All

Several scenarios where an ally bot, or several, are jumped by the enemy team and start running. In all of these scenarios, your teammates are far away, and you'd be running into a 5v2 if you try and save your teammate. I've had so many teammates "try and save me" when they should really just learn to hold back, so what if the goal was simply for one of you two to live (or the bot can be the carry, and you can specifically shoot for them living, whether or not you want to)
This is awesome, though you should have the challenge incorporate when it is okay/safe to engage/help your team vs. when you should run away, as we don't just want to teach people to ditch their team any time the situation looks remotely troublesome.


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GoldenPlum

Senior Member

08-09-2010

first time i've seen 1000 up-votes also,
bump


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Predinchuk

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

08-09-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oshobnem View Post
Updates look good!

One little nitpicky thing =)


This should be 3. Unless this is a Monty Python joke
I SWEAR I noticed this before and I totally thought I'd fixed it :'(

Thanks for catching that Was that bothering you for a while, or what? :P


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Searathus

Senior Member

08-09-2010

Do it!


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Predinchuk

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

08-09-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by UmbrellaExile View Post
This is an excellent discussion, you've touched on pretty much everything that keeps coming up in games with some of my newer friends. What about something that teaches you that death is a natural part of life?

You Can't Save Them All

Several scenarios where an ally bot, or several, are jumped by the enemy team and start running. In all of these scenarios, your teammates are far away, and you'd be running into a 5v2 if you try and save your teammate. I've had so many teammates "try and save me" when they should really just learn to hold back, so what if the goal was simply for one of you two to live (or the bot can be the carry, and you can specifically shoot for them living, whether or not you want to)
I've had this problem with many of my premade friends as well as online players, only it's usually the opposite. The scenario I'm thinking of tends to go like this;

- Teamfight breaks out, full-out-five on five.
- One teammate gets focused, health drops to 70%; flashes, ghosts, runs, w/e
- His friend notices and runs as well
- It is now a 5v3. We get slaughtered and lose our Nashor buff.

Really, it's tough to correct either of these tendencies in players..it's really up to them to decide when it's fine to take certain actions in team fights. I think that correcting this with a challenge would be wonderful, but every situation is different. If it's possible to use Kayle's ult and heal/speed them up from afar, do it. If you can stand united with Shen and then group-taunt them and flash out, perfect. Some things can be taught, others can't, not with challenges. It's simply up to the players to learn this one...unless somebody can come up with a genius challenge that covers all situations. However, that's like teaching somebody in hockey how to score a goal with one simple drill; it can't be done. There are many complex interactions in games like hockey and LoL, and general "do good" techniques are not overly simple very often :S