Ryze - Dominion

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DG TheFeedski

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Senior Member

03-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Froppi View Post
This is the end of the discussion, unless there is mathcraft to dispute this. Also why would someone downvote you. I don't get the logic of these forums sometimes.
Nope. The math is correct as far as I am concerned.


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WavesBlade

Senior Member

03-13-2012

No comment about rolling your face across the keyboard?

I am disappoint.


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Phourc

Senior Member

03-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbiddian View Post
Archangel's Staff is pretty decent. The breakeven point is around 2000 mana. At that point you get the same damage as if you'd stacked sapphire crystals.

Of course, your other items, like FH and BV and Tear are far more efficient than just sapphire crystals, but Archangel's Staff is a good endgame upgrade.
It's decent, it just doesn't have the offense-defense combo that Ryze needs as the AP bruiser he is. Not only that, AP isn't really that strong on him, only significantly increasing his E damage.


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RealWolf M

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Senior Member

03-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzel View Post
I love you. You are awesome. Thanks for bringing a bit of intelligence to the thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phourc View Post
It's [Archangels] decent, it just doesn't have the offense-defense combo that Ryze needs as the AP bruiser he is. Not only that, AP isn't really that strong on him, only significantly increasing his E damage.
This is wrong. Please visit the above link and learn why. Not worth explaining it to you


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Kiddalee

Senior Member

03-13-2012

Building: How inane. A spammer that casts both while Tear is on cooldown and off it is still casting when Tear is off cooldown.

Time Limits: You don't have to fill it right up. A half-full Tear is still good. Actually, Tear begins to pay for itself extremely early.

Laning: I answered this under Time Limits.

Survival: That is why most players build Tear second, not first. Catalyst is much more survivable. Then sit on Tear all game while you build a Frozen Heart and Odyn's Veil. You will still be able to stack Tear significantly if you build it second.

Rod of Ages is less survivable than Catalyst + Tear because it severely delays your resistance items and takes longer to buy. Since Rod is more subject to Dominion's time limit than Tear, you have to build it super-early, so you will delay both resistance items and Tear-based mana-damage. You might even have to delay Sorcerer's Shoes.

You could have written this without sounding bitter, and responding in kind, more people would have helped you.


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Orphane

Senior Member

03-13-2012

What would you build as an alternate item for Ryze that would match Tear's efficiency? Sure, maybe it might suck in the beginning if you are forced to go top for whatever reason, but the sheer amount of mana (and thus damage) it gives even not fully stacked for its price is invaluable.


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DEFACT0

Senior Member

03-13-2012

ITT people thinks that rock because they have high ELO in unranked matches. Sorry guys but you are not scarra.


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FDru

Senior Member

03-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEFACT0 View Post
ITT people thinks that rock because they have high ELO in unranked matches. Sorry guys but you are not scarra.
You just made absolutely no sense. Good job!


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Phourc

Senior Member

03-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RealWolf M View Post
I love you. You are awesome. Thanks for bringing a bit of intelligence to the thread.

This is wrong. Please visit the above link and learn why. Not worth explaining it to you
Well naturally you'd like it if someone quotes your own work. xP

What I disliked about your guide is you used a strange baseline, I don't really think in terms of mana crystals, base damage (was that tooltip damage or with mana added in?) and multiples thereof. You didn't really include any actual damage numbers, which made it a little difficult to follow.



Okay, here's how I think of Archangel: it adds 3% mana as your AP, thus giving you an effective (.2 * 3%) .6% mana scaling on Q, (.5 * 3%) 1.5% mana scaling on W and (.35 * 3%) 1.05% scaling on E. Now, this is hardly bad, but it is MUCH smaller than the mana scaling already in place (barring E, naturally) - and nowhere near the insane gold efficiency of the tear.

My point: Sitting on a tear all game is perfectly acceptable for a Ryze. Archangel is good simply because it does not take up an additional slot, and will eventually become a decent amount of AP for a single item, but it is not a massive damage increase.

I believe I said I would much rather have the mana/defense items - and you did as well, saying you would only get it after FH + Odyn's. So, we agree there.

However, you also state it increases the damage 66% at 100 tear stacks, which may be true going off of base damage, but is a misleading figure.

Let's assume you're level 18 because that makes the math easier, with 100 casts worth of tear stacks. You have 1240 base mana, 225 from your ult, 216 from the mastery, 163 from blue + yellow runes ( do you run per level? I originally bought flats for SR), 350 from the tear, 500 from frozen heart, 350 from odyn's and 400 from the assumed tear stacks. That gives you a pretty sassy 3,444 total mana.

Archangel's only gives you 50 more mana, and 45 + 3% mana as AP, for 150 total AP (and 3494 mana). That's a deathcap worth of AP, but Ryze's ratios aren't so hot.

Now let's make some damage assumptions, since Ryze has a lot going on: We'll do a short combo - QWEQ and a long combo - QEQWQRQEQWQ,We'll assume E doesn't bounce at all (in a 1v1 when it's safe to stand close, Ryze should do 3 hits with every E) and ignoring mr shred, ult splashes, what-have-yous. Ryze has a lot going on.

(M = mana and A = AP just to be clear)

QWEQ = (140 + .075M + .2A) + (200 + .05M + .6A) + (130 + .35A) + (140 + .075M + .2A) = 610 + .2M + 1.35A

QEQWQRQEQWQ = (140 + .075M + .2A) + (130 + .35A) + (140 + .075M + .2A) + (200 + .05M + .6A) + (140 + .075M + .2A) + (140 + .075M + .2A) + (130 + .35A) + (140 + .075M + .2A) + (200 + .05M + .6A) + (140 + .075M + .2A) = 1500 + .925 M + 3.1 A

So, pre-AA you have 3,444 mana and O AP, you do 610 + .2 * 3444 + 1.35 * 0 = 1298 damage with the short combo and 1500 + .925 * 3444 + 3.1 * 0 = 4685.7 with the long combo.

Post- AA you have 3494 mana and 150 AP, you do 610 + .2 * 3494 + 1.35 * 150 = 610 + 698.8 + 202.5 = 1511.3 damage with the short combo and 1500 + .925 * 3494 + 3.1 * 150 = 1500 + 3231.95 + 465 = 5196.95 damage with the long combo.

Comparing them, you see a (1511 / 1298 = 1.164) 16.4% damage increase on the small combo and (5197 / 4686 = 1.109) 10.9% damage increase on the long combo. That is far from awful, but for an 1860g price tag it's more of a "nothing else to build" item than a required one.

So, perhaps you did not feel it was worth explaining, but I hope my explanation helped make my point clear. ^^


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Panwar

Senior Member

03-13-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by FDru View Post
You just made absolutely no sense. Good job!

Are you telling me that you disagree with "...people thinks that rock..." I mean it seems pretty self-evident to me.


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