Double Bruiser vs AD Carry and Support.

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Raidarc

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Senior Member

03-05-2012

Obviously you've got to ward just like a Ranged AD and Support does. If you're able to keep the pressure on bottom, the jungler must constantly babysit bottom, cutting down on his farm and putting all 3 behind if he can't manage a successful gank. While at the same time allowing top and mid to free farm and our own jungler to have his way with the other lanes.

I'm not saying it would work all the time, I think a great counter to the double bruiser would be Alistar and Vayne with the 2 push backs. Both bruisers require a CC for it to work at all.

You underestimate the damage Maokai can do bottom lane. He also has a snare and a slow. While Olaf will deal a good 65% of the damage; Maokai's damage is hardly lacking.


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StatinRX

Junior Member

03-05-2012

i did this today me being Olaf and my partber Irelia..the true damage early game was too much for graves and taric to deal with. of course, we had to play aggressive for the first 7-8 minutes then ward a littlebto prevent ganks from mid but with slowing axes and equilibrium strikes stun we had no problems


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Folly Inc

Senior Member

03-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RusMolot View Post
Alistar is not a bruiser.
This statement is false. Alistar is no way a traditional support, one heal skill does not a support make. Just because he is an effective 0CS champion does not make him a support. There are -a lot- of effective 0cs champions. Generally, these champions are effective because of the powerful utility they earn through their skills.

Any champion whose primary mode of damage is through auto-attacks, is a bruiser. Alistar can, and very often is, played as a bruiser.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RusMolot View Post
Graves would smoke screen blitz because sona, being the skilled support that she is, not the noob who facechecks bushes that you claim she is, WARDS the s*** out of everything to counter blitz.
Yes, Graves does have a smoke screen, which is nearly useless in the laning phase. And Blitzcrank, being the skilled bruiser he is, is going to counterward Sona's ward placement. Wards Wars is a science applicable to all champions, assuming blitzcrank is intelligent enough to use his eyes and watch Sona ward, he will know when to counter ward. Considering Sona WILL have to place wards first, blitzcrank (assuming he stays on top of the game) will always have the edge in ward usage. Not to mention he'll get a larger return for taking out -more- of Sona's wards.

You're making pointless counter arguments here, everything sona can do to try and get ahead, Tryndamere and Blitzcrank can stay ahead of. Blizcrank -will- have brush supremacy in lane. Sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RusMolot View Post
Not to mention that if Blitz farms, Trynd starves, if Blitz doesnt farm, he is forced to play pure/tanky support, not bruiser. Sonas ult makes Trynds ult useless, so no more tower dive kills, and no more using it to kill graves by standing there and continuing to dish out while you are in ult.
You're missing the concept of duo bot lane as a strategy. Neither champion is going to farm especially over the other. Sharing is caring, broski. Yes, this does limit the amount of creep Blitzcrank and Tryndamere are going to get on an individual level, but considering that the AD carry and the support are going to be nearly -completely- starved, I would take 50-75 CS per champion by 15 minutes over the 0-50 the support and carry are going to get farming off the tower.

Past that, Sona's ult does no such thing. A Sona stun of 1.5 seconds does not do anything to hinder Tryndameres ultimate. He can still activate it while stunned, and his lasts for 5 seconds. In the grand scheme of things, sona or graves is dead if trynd wants one of them dead. Especially if the grab is landed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RusMolot View Post

Soraka out heals over Alistar, and her silence makes his cc quite useless because it usually ends up coming at a bad time, but like I said, Alistar is as tanky support. His ability to sustain his lanemate may win in the long run, unlikely to win earlygame though. If Alistar doesnt farm too much, his lane mate should to fine mid to late game.
This is incorrect as well, at least pre-six. Soraka gets one heal per minion wave with a cooldown of 20 seconds. Alistar gets 2-3 heals per minion wave, as his base cooldown is 12 seconds AND is reduced by 2 with every minion death. The average minion wave consists of 6 minions. 3 deaths is a 6 second cooldown reduction. Should a champion die during this engagement, which they would if they chose to engage the duo bot bruisers, that would increase to 8 seconds, ensuring a second heal long before soraka's is off cooldown. the third would come up after the first champions death, ensuring that soraka/sivir would not be able to pick up and kills that might have been left over after the first champion fell.

In regards to the heal specifically, Alistar would heal 60 to his lanemate with two of his heals, and 120 to himself at level one. While Soraka only heals 70 to a single target. Even if you're going off one skill Alistar still heals more health overall, considering he would heal 30 to his lanemate and 60 to himself, for a cumulative of 90.

Post level 6, yes, Soraka will out heal Alistar, but her lackluster damage, and the fact that her magic resist shred will not profit the combination at all in bottom lane, would mean that they would not be able to win an engagement against the two, ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RusMolot View Post
Your first example is utter nonsense, your second does not portray 2 bruisers, rather, a bruiser with a tanky support.

And once again, not all supports are flimsy like sona soraka or jana. You have to keep in mind that blitz, alistar, singed, rammus, and a few others can be played as tanky supports.
These champions are all bruisers. You're suffering from misunderstanding English as a language here my friend. Just because a champion has utility and can "support" another champion, doesn't mean they're not bruisers. Alistar punches you in the face for -alot- of damage with sheen/trinity force. If he gets fed, you can bet your ass he's going to build it too.

This hold true for all your aforementioned bruisers, among many others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RusMolot View Post
Not to mention ad ranged carry+support can successfully seige a tower, and farm under a tower, whereas if 2 bruisers have been pushed under a tower, any attempt to farm will be met with harrassment from the AD carry.

I am afraid I do not see a clear cut line here. I am not saying AD ranged+ support is the only way to win, but I AM saying 2 bruisers will not win over a counterpicked, sometimes even blind picked AD range+support 10/10 times. There are too many factors that go into that outcome, not the least of which is an exploited misclick, or a jungler gank.

****post edit
What is to say sivir is not the counterpick to blitz? That is one more thing no one can account for - who counterpicks who
In summation of all my previous points and in partial response to your post I would like to say that Support+AD carry is a weak lane. The only reason it gets attention is because it allows for sustain in lane. The distinct advantage it provides is the ability for the two laners to stay in lane for an extended period of time, allowing them to still have an effect in team fights.
What you counter by forcing the support and AD to farm under the tower is several things, the first is a possibility to farm a high number of CS. It's simply not possible to farm successfully under the turret. Will you get some of the CS? yes. Will you miss out on around half or more of the total CS you could earn? yes.

Another thing you gain by countering bottom lane with double bruiser is map control. A vital aspect of every League of Legends game. Having Dragon control the whole game practically ensures a gold advantage, but more than just Dragon control, you also control the whole southern half of the map. Not only does this open up 4 man gank opportunities against mid, it also allows you to control the enemies Red/Blue depending on which side of the map you're on.

The final thing you gain by countering AD+Support in this way (if the above mentioned reasons weren't enough) Is a psychological advantage. If you're forcing the enemy to stay hidden under their tower, they are far less likely to ward effectively, or pay as much attention to other lanes, as they have their own to worry about. having such a psychological advantage over your enemy is a HUGE benefit to your team, and will often result in an early surrender from the opposing team.

So I stand by my previous statement that YES double bruiser WILL always counter Support+AD bot. I would also like to point out that counter picking Blitzcrank with Sivir would never happen not only because it's silly to counter an enemy utility champion with a AD Carry, but in a team fight scenario Sivir isn't going to give the team a distinct advantage with just picking her after seeing Blitzcrank.

**post edit**

Too long, sir, Didn't read.

Double Bruiser bot is a GREAT counter to support+AD bot.


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FaerellG

Senior Member

03-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raidarc View Post
Obviously you've got to ward just like a Ranged AD and Support does. If you're able to keep the pressure on bottom, the jungler must constantly babysit bottom, cutting down on his farm and putting all 3 behind if he can't manage a successful gank. While at the same time allowing top and mid to free farm and our own jungler to have his way with the other lanes.
Who buys the ward?

My understanding is that most bruisers need some sort of sustain or defense item in order to survive counter harass and not get pushed out.

That is a good point in forcing the Jungler to come bot though. However, dependent on who starts on which side, the jungler may have 2 paths to come and gank through. Can your bot lane afford to drop 2 wards early game?

Those wards only last for so long. You also have to consider when you want to drop those wards. If you drop it to spot the level 2 gank, then the jungler can go farm up to lev 4 and come back when the wards are gone.

Or perhaps since you're doing duo bruiser bot meaning your AD is top, the Jungler will go top and shut down your AD who's in a very vulnerable lane.

PS:
I'm not knocking the idea of duo-bruiser bot. I think it's a great idea to counter AD/Support, but I think it's vulnerable to a handful of other things as well and you would need to ban/counterpick or otherwise play around those things; primarily a fast ganking jungler.


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Folly Inc

Senior Member

03-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by FaerellG View Post
Who buys the ward?

My understanding is that most bruisers need some sort of sustain or defense item in order to survive counter harass and not get pushed out.

That is a good point in forcing the Jungler to come bot though. However, dependent on who starts on which side, the jungler may have 2 paths to come and gank through. Can your bot lane afford to drop 2 wards early game?

Those wards only last for so long. You also have to consider when you want to drop those wards. If you drop it to spot the level 2 gank, then the jungler can go farm up to lev 4 and come back when the wards are gone.

Or perhaps since you're doing duo bruiser bot meaning your AD is top, the Jungler will go top and shut down your AD who's in a very vulnerable lane.

PS:
I'm not knocking the idea of duo-bruiser bot. I think it's a great idea to counter AD/Support, but I think it's vulnerable to a handful of other things as well and you would need to ban/counterpick or otherwise play around those things; primarily a fast ganking jungler.
Well now you're thinking, good sir. A wise jungler will realize that bottom lane is lost (depending on the jungler). There's not much he can do to salvage that.

Ultimately, League of Legends is a game of knowledge, strategy, and skill. Picks and counter picks are going to happen, and are going to effect the outcome of the game. Past that, everything that matters is knowing what your champion is going to work well against, and what it isn't.


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Raidarc

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Senior Member

03-05-2012

If the bruiser's jungle is ganking top while the supports jungle is ganking top it still evens out. I wouldn't put a ranged ad carry top, this is also considering, if it was an ad carry, that hes last hitting and warding himself.

My Maokai/Olaf example is great, the olaf grabs flash/exhuast. maokai grabs flash/ignite. We've been ganked early by shaco and just exhuast him or flash away. I've also been contemplating perhaps grabbing heal on both but its still early attempts.


First blood gives you boots and ward. Maokai has a gab closer, can jump to creeps. Oh, and Maokai's saplings and be temp wards too.


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StatinRX

Junior Member

03-05-2012

idbsay its situational who grabs the ward....when i play maokai i have saplings plus normally grab a philo stone which equals free money forvwards...dont forget a lot if bruisers rush a wriggles for sustain or atcbest a couple dorans...id like to.point out that with my example irelia and.olaf one of us warded bushes other warded dragon ...we took down dragon every chance which equals more gold for your team


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Raidarc

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Senior Member

03-06-2012

Bump?


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Folly Inc

Senior Member

03-06-2012

I'm surprised this hasn't gotten more attention myself.


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GirreX

Junior Member

03-06-2012

Think of a Maoki + Urgot bottom... ouch.


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