Double Bruiser vs AD Carry and Support.

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Raidarc

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Senior Member

03-05-2012

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy3LtRwFyFY

Discuss.

I've had success with with it but I haven't had too much time to test it. Each time I've done it, it worked out perfectly.

Edit: Maokai and Olaf are great together.


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RusMolot

Member

03-05-2012

Relies heavily on your ability to zone and or kill the ad early on. If ad has good support who ccs all your harass attempts, and allows for his ad to counter harrass you are s out of luck.


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Raidarc

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Senior Member

03-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RusMolot View Post
Relies heavily on your ability to zone and or kill the ad early on. If ad has good support who ccs all your harass attempts, and allows for his ad to counter harrass you are s out of luck.
Picture Maokai diving the support for half their health with sapling and snare. Then Olaf with his OP true damage and slowing axe. Even if they live, and for the first while they will, the consistent harass will zone them quite easily, support cc or not.

At level 1, the bruisers have the upper hand. It would depend on playstyle. As the bruisers you MUST be aggressive. There are so many supports who don't get flash now and those are the free kills, only takes 1 to feed and it doesn't have to be the AD carry at first.


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RusMolot

Member

03-05-2012

In general I agree with everything you said, but you example is purely situational. If soraka keeps up silence and heal, if taric keeps up stun and heal, if alistar keeps up headbutt and heal etc....

If you want everyone to agree with you, why post?

Not all supports are flimsy like Janna, and AD+support vs 2 bruisers comes down to an earlygame showdown. Who ever succeeds in zoning and harrassing the most will win, this depends on lane composition, jungler ganks, player skill level, communication etc. There is no clear cut winner here, hence I repeat my first statement which is simply a neural observation:

2 bruisers rely on early zoning and/or kill(s) to gaib the advantage.

Whether you succeed in zoning can neither be voted on, nor stated as a fact on the forums. I for one have successfully supported an AD through tough early games vs 2 bruisers, and once we got past lvl 4, bruisers were starved for farm. I have also lost vs 2 bruisers because of early snowball.


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FaerellG

Senior Member

03-05-2012

It sounds like it would be extremely susceptible to level 2 gankers like Lee Sin and Shen.

Actually, I seem to recall getting my AD a double kill when I was jungling Shen last night against a duo bruiser bot. Being aggressive means pushing past the mid-point, and lev 2 ganks come in when the lanes are still level 1.

Dash, Ki strike, Vorpal.
Support drops summoner heal, AD auto attacks away.

So for this to work in ranked, you'll need to ban the early gankers. Even a lev 4 gank could potentially screw this bot lane.


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Folly Inc

Senior Member

03-05-2012

Lets remove this from theory and have some actual scenarios.

Double bruiser bot lane must consist of two things to be successful. The first being CC. Most bruisers come with CC nowadays, check. The second is damage output. Most bruisers come with significant damage now, and those who didn't (Shen) are getting to boost they need. It's safe to say that -most- double bruiser combinations are going to have higher damage and higher control than the support/sustain lane.

So lets put some of this into acttion now, shall we? The enemy teams a Sona/Graves bottom. Highly valued for it's formidably early harass game, and huge team wide effects late game.

Now place them against Tyndamere and Blitzcrank. Please note that Tryndamere IS a champion with carrying effects, meaning his usefulness is the same (if not greater) than graves in a teamfight situation.

It's safe to assume three very important things here.

1. Blitzcrank -will- have brush control over sona, significantly reducing her harass effectiveness at -all- point in the game.

2. Tryndamere has the necessary CC to shut down any escape attempts (past the first flash) made after Blitzcranks grab.

3. The combined CC of Tryndamere and Blitzcrank is greater than the combined CC of Sona and Graves.

With these three things in mind we have to reach the unfortunate conclusion that Graves and Sona simply can't lane past level 3. If they try to, they WILL be zoned by tryndamere and blitzcrank. Please note that this depends heavily on all players being skilled enough to control their champions well. (ie, blitzcrank landing his brags, trynd only slowing when his opponent s are feeling, etc.

Another strong S/S example is Soraka and Sivir. Between the two of them they have a formidable amount of burst damage. Enough to kill a trynd at lvl 1 with an auto-attack or two. So instead lets send your teams ranged carry up top and play strictly to some double bruisers with mild carry effects. Jarvan has a good amount of tankiness and damage to counter balance the high initial burst. Alistar has a good way to negate that hard damage and -a lot- of CC.

In the best case scenario for the S/S team, Sivir and Soraka just can't farm. Alistar is healing up any damage dealt to him and jarvan, and any attempt made to get back into lane is thwarted by pokes from jarvan at early levels and knock-ups by jarvan post lvl 3. They simply can't do enough damage and retain enough damage for the strategy to be effective. I'm sorry, but double bruiser bot -will- ALWAYS starve the Support/Sustain bottom.

10 times out of 10.

**post edit**

Also note that this does not take account into jungling, as it's an undependable resource. It also frees up your teams jungler to counter jungle, since bottom lane is being denied.

TL;DR

Support/sustain cannot lane against double bruiser.


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FaerellG

Senior Member

03-05-2012

Since you suggest that Blitz should be competent enough to land his grabs, I would submit that Sivir should be competent enough to use Spell Shield against his grab, or just stand behind minions.


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Folly Inc

Senior Member

03-05-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by FaerellG View Post
Since you suggest that Blitz should be competent enough to land his grabs, I would submit that Sivir should be competent enough to use Spell Shield against his grab, or just stand behind minions.
You wouldn't pick Blitzcrank in a Sivir situation, especially since his combo relies so much on landing one skill. This is why Jarvan was suggested, as his Cataclysm ignores her Spell Shield (in effect, not damage) regardless of it being on or not.


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RusMolot

Member

03-05-2012

Alistar is not a bruiser, he is tanky support. Blitz is also suport but I suppose he can be considered bruiser as well. Graves would smoke screen blitz because sona, being the skilled support that she is, not the noob who facechecks bushes that you claim she is, WARDS the s*** out of everything to counter blitz. Not to mention that if Blitz farms, Trynd starves, if Blitz doesnt farm, he is forced to play pure/tanky support, not bruiser. Sonas ult makes Trynds ult useless, so no more tower dive kills, and no more using it to kill graves by standing there and continuing to dish out while you are in ult.

Soraka out heals over Alistar, and her silence makes his cc quite useless because it usually ends up coming at a bad time, but like I said, Alistar is as tanky support. His ability to sustain his lanemate may win in the long run, unlikely to win earlygame though. If Alistar doesnt farm too much, his lane mate should to fine mid to late game.

Your first example is utter nonsense, your second does not portray 2 bruisers, rather, a bruiser with a tanky support.

And once again, not all supports are flimsy like sona soraka or jana. You have to keep in mind that blitz, alistar, singed, rammus, and a few others can be played as tanky supports.

I'd say ad ranged carry+tanky support is the hardest to deal with of all three combos. You also left out effects of jungler presence. While it is easy to gank a ranged AD squishy, it is difficult to gank a 2 bruiser combo which is perhaps their greatest advantage. However, if a support is playing right, the WARDS will make it impossible to gank the ad squishy and support because of their superior map awareness.

Not to mention ad ranged carry+support can successfully seige a tower, and farm under a tower, whereas if 2 bruisers have been pushed under a tower, any attempt to farm will be met with harrassment from the AD carry.

I am afraid I do not see a clear cut line here. I am not saying AD ranged+ support is the only way to win, but I AM saying 2 bruisers will not win over a counterpicked, sometimes even blind picked AD range+support 10/10 times. There are too many factors that go into that outcome, not the least of which is an exploited misclick, or a jungler gank.

****post edit
What is to say sivir is not the counterpick to blitz? That is one more thing no one can account for - who counterpicks who


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RusMolot

Member

03-05-2012

There is only one case in which I would take a firm side on any TROLOLOL post that claims one is significantly better than the other - the TROLOLOLER works under the assumption that he and his lane mate are 2000+ elo players communicating on skype against lvl 1 newbies with revive+teleport that are not premade, not communicating on skype, and are tower diving all the time.

In any other case I can think of counterpicks, and counter strategies for both sides, including much better 2 bruiser examples that do not rely on tanky supports to set up kills, but rather on the raw gap closing and damage dealing power of true bruisers.


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