[Champion Feedback] Janna - Worst support character

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Aura

Senior Member

10-18-2009

I used to have a lot of success with Janna, I really did. Playing more and more though, she's just become so ineffective. Most skills are just unnoticeable and ignorable. Yes, the right skill here and there can save a life or help a gank, but it's very very situational and doesn't apply to teamfights at all.

I think the comparisons are fair. If Zilean can do everything Janna can do, but better, why can't you compare? He can't do damage negation via shield, but it's arguable Janna can't either ;p


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Bregan

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Senior Member

10-18-2009

ulty should do damage with the knockback, MAYBE damage depending on how close they are, or something like 300-600 depending how close they are. honestly her only real problem is the mana costs are too high and maybe her natural hp is a bit low. all of her abilities are fine, i dont know why people complain so much about them. i always do fine as janna, and i've seen quite a few people rock the house with her.


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Mercurius

Senior Member

10-18-2009

Protip: if you think zephyr is in any way counterproductive then you're not playing as support.
You're trying to play like a solo raping ryze. You're doing it wrong.


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Daikaze

Senior Member

10-18-2009

Personally I think that Janna is a great character and doesn't really need any improvements... but I wouldn't complain if she was improved.


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ShadowOrigin

Senior Member

10-18-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercurius View Post
She's amazing as she is, and just plain better than Taric in general.
What is with baddies having trouble grasping Janna & Mundo?
There's no way Janna needs a buff. That'd just make her overpowered and completely skill-less to play like what happened to Soraka & Mundo.
I seriously doubt I'm in the highest ELO bracket, but at roughly a 60% win rate pre-wipe, I was at least in decent standings. I haven't seen Janna even once on the enemy team following the two week period where she was released, where everyone wanted to try her. I've seen Mundo played more than her.

Exactly how is she better than Taric? Post your observations. Calling me a bad player without trying to justify your post at all makes you simply seem trollish. I've posted why I believe the other support characters are better than her, comparing similar skill sets, and I'll go into further detail here for Taric:

  • Taric's shatter does more damage, as well as giving a more preferable effect in most situations. Howling Gale is incredibly easy to avoid, even in team battles. Perhaps you've been stuck with bad opponents yourself.
  • He has a true stun rather than a 4s slow; stuns are almost always preferable to slows.
  • He has a single target heal that scales pretty well, and heals himself for quite a bit, or himself and an ally for similar amounts. Much preferable to a small shield that boosts attack by a paltry amount. The shield can be cast on towers, but this generally isn't the best use for it unless you're losing.
  • His ultimate doesn't heal for as much as quickly, Janna does win there, but it does increase damage done by allies by up to 80%. Pop this near the beginning of a team fight and you need to be at a serious disadvantage to lose. Meanwhile with Monsoon, you're knocking people back, which shaves about 1.5s off their travel time.
  • Taric is quite capable of going almost full tank, with some mana regen items, and doing perfectly well, thus making his "walk-into-a-team-fight-and-die" ultimate just fine. Janna cannot quite do this as well, as she generally needs more AP, mana, mana regen, and then working on the other items. She has to branch out to too many stats to be worthwhile with her ultimate.


Many people here seem to be saying that Janna cannot be compared to other pure support characters, which Taric, Morgana, Zilean, and Soraka are. However, as someone else on this thread has stated, if Janna cannot be compared to other pure support characters, to whom is she supposed to be compared?

You compare ranged DPS to ranged DPS; I wouldn't compare Ashe to Janna. You compare physical DPS to physical DPS; I wouldn't compare Warwick to Janna. Where is the comparison made? She's not a completely unique character that cannot be compared to anyone else.


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tehmonk

Member

10-18-2009

i don't see any problems with janna. she can barely ever be caught, no one can run from her, an amazing mid-game shield/dmg buff that has a retardedly short cd and low mana cost, and she's got a massive aoe heal that's comparable to fiddle's drain for your team.

in terms of solo play: people either don't understand how to use gale effectively or they simply can't pull it off. short cast on gale followed by zephyr is an undodgeable slow if you know how to do it. also casting gale doesn't stop you so hitting it on the run gives you plenty of breathing room.

when it comes to team play: gale pop-up is comparable to alistair's pop-up, it's a great opener and if given time to charge does a hefty amount of damage to 2 or more heroes (if executed properly of course); it's also a great escape tool. zephyr isn't as useful unless you're catching a runner or saving a teammate obviously. with shield your tank or carry gets an extra couple hundred effective hp and extra damage which never hurts, and monsoon can break off a bad push or extend a good one while keeping most of your team intact even if it means you staying behind and taking one for the cause. a janna that stays behind during a bad push almost undoubtedly cuts off the other team's chase route while leaving your team free to back up.

and to acknowledge the comparison between zilean and janna? zilean can't save a full team from a bad push, he can spare one or two by speeding them out of there. casting his rez spell is just an extended death sentence in a bad situation. he has no opener and his damage output is laughable compared to janna's.


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ShadowOrigin

Senior Member

10-18-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by tehmonk View Post
To acknowledge the comparison between zilean and janna? zilean can't save a full team from a bad push, he can spare one or two by speeding them out of there. casting his rez spell is just an extended death sentence in a bad situation. he has no opener and his damage output is laughable compared to janna's.
While what you're saying holds true for early game, come mid to late game Zilean can quite easily haste most everyone on his team. I've hasted myself and three other teammates from a bad push, the 5-7s of 65% move speed increase is generally enough to get away from whatever the enemy can do. The last guy was left to die, but he was likely the reason it was a bad push anyways. Meanwhile, it can also speed up Zilean far more than Janna's passive can, and then he casts a 65% slow on the enemy, which can easily be permanently applied via rewind.

I can agree that he has no real opener.

I cannot agree on damage output though. The bombs do 320 damage base, have over 1:1 AP scaling, and can quite easily be doubled up with rewind, which any good Zilean should be doing. Similar to Janna, Zilean can plant a bomb on someone early on, and then just walk away, not taking the wrath of the turret or enemy minions. Later on this is also true, planting one on them inside their base during a siege, or outside when they're trying to siege your base.

In most cases the enemy team is going to focus one member of your group and try to kill them as quickly as possible in order to make it a 4v5. This is where Chronoshift is highly preferred, as it spares that one member, while the rest of your team can attempt to bring down one of the enemy.

While Janna's ultimate is more effective against an AOE team, what good AOE team is going to actually let her fully get off the heal? The second she runs in, she'll likely get disabled, and then beaten down by the AOE and combination of champions. Zilean, meanwhile, can stay quite safe at the far edge of the battle.


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Mercurius

Senior Member

10-18-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowOrigin View Post
I seriously doubt I'm in the highest ELO bracket, but at roughly a 60% win rate pre-wipe, I was at least in decent standings. I haven't seen Janna even once on the enemy team following the two week period where she was released, where everyone wanted to try her. I've seen Mundo played more than her.

Exactly how is she better than Taric? Post your observations. Calling me a bad player without trying to justify your post at all makes you simply seem trollish. I've posted why I believe the other support characters are better than her, comparing similar skill sets, and I'll go into further detail here for Taric:

  • Taric's shatter does more damage, as well as giving a more preferable effect in most situations. Howling Gale is incredibly easy to avoid, even in team battles. Perhaps you've been stuck with bad opponents yourself.
Howling gale is impossible to avoid.
protip: you can release it early
protip: you can place it out of LoS
protip: you can place it through walls
PEBKAC

  • He has a true stun rather than a 4s slow; stuns are almost always preferable to slows.
Howling Gale is better than a true stun. You can't cleanse or reduce the duration of knock-ups. (howling gale can also hit more than 1 target derp)
  • He has a single target heal that scales pretty well, and heals himself for quite a bit, or himself and an ally for similar amounts. Much preferable to a small shield that boosts attack by a paltry amount. The shield can be cast on towers, but this generally isn't the best use for it unless you're losing.
Janna's shield is different and not comparable. It shields for more damage than Taric's heal restores, however- and Taric's heal doesn't give an enormous damage bonus.
  • His ultimate doesn't heal for as much as quickly, Janna does win there, but it does increase damage done by allies by up to 80%. Pop this near the beginning of a team fight and you need to be at a serious disadvantage to lose. Meanwhile with Monsoon, you're knocking people back, which shaves about 1.5s off their travel time.
These two aren't comparable. They have opposite purposes. Your post completely failed when you tried to compare these.
  • Taric is quite capable of going almost full tank, with some mana regen items, and doing perfectly well, thus making his "walk-into-a-team-fight-and-die" ultimate just fine. Janna cannot quite do this as well, as she generally needs more AP, mana, mana regen, and then working on the other items. She has to branch out to too many stats to be worthwhile with her ultimate.
They're both equally capable of going tank. Janna is more useful than Taric here, however.
Let me know when Taric gets an AoE stun and you'll have a point.
^

Fun fact: If 2 champions, one using a heal and the other using a damage reduce shield of equal amounts are both being attacked by a minion the champ with the heal will die first.


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ShadowOrigin

Senior Member

10-18-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercurius View Post
Howling gale is impossible to avoid.
protip: you can release it early
protip: you can place it out of LoS
protip: you can place it through walls
PEBKAC
Once again you resort to childish trolling methods. Is being insulting the only way you think you can get your points across? I assure you, it's not necessary, and doesn't help validate your points in the least. Moving on to the topic:

You can hear the whirlwind, doesn't matter if charging or instantly released, and when you do, move left or right slightly. Bam, avoided. Until the fog of war effects are fixed and you cannot see the whirlwind through the trees, your second and third point also mean squat. Even after those are fixed, however, you'll still be able to HEAR the whirlwind. It's quite predictable where a Janna will send it in most places.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercurius View Post
Howling Gale is better than a true stun. You can't cleanse or reduce the duration of knock-ups. (howling gale can also hit more than 1 target derp)
While you cannot cleanse or reduce the duration of a knock up, yet, as stated above it is quite easy to avoid in most cases. Saying it has a 100% hit rate that you claim, against multiple opponents on the enemy team no less, it would be better for a team fight, I can agree. It would still fail at actually catching an opponent running away in most cases, though, as does Zephyr usually until higher levels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercurius View Post
Janna's shield is different and not comparable. It shields for more damage than Taric's heal restores, however- and Taric's heal doesn't give an enormous damage bonus.
Janna's shield is not incredibly different and it is comparable. Both a shield and a heal give an ally health they would not otherwise have. The only upside to Janna's shield is that it gives bonus attack for the duration it is on, but how long does this realistically last? The shield is going to be popped near instantly in any serious fight, thus generally making it only a damage absorber.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercurius View Post
These two aren't comparable. They have opposite purposes. Your post completely failed when you tried to compare these.
Taric's ultimate is an offensive heal, Janna's ultimate is a defensive heal. They have similar purposes that are executed differently. The difference between these two, however, is that Janna's ultimate can be immediately interrupted upon her beginning to cast it, and any smart team will do this. Taric's ultimate will continue to heal until he dies, runs out of mana, or turns it off.

Yes, Janna's knock back can theoretically have uses, but it likely won't in any serious team fight where your opponents are actually paying attention, and shut her down as said before. Also keep in mind that this is likely only going to knock back the melee opponents, the ranged opponents will keep plucking away, and should focus squishy little Janna as soon as she comes in range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercurius View Post
They're both equally capable of going tank. Janna is more useful than Taric here, however.
Let me know when Taric gets an AoE stun and you'll have a point.
They are both quite capable of going tank, sure. Janna is more likely to run out of mana, and be all around less useful when she does though, for reasons listed above. Janna wasn't designed to be a tank, just look at her attribute tags in champion select, and if not that just a comparison of ability and stats. She shouldn't have an ability that puts her into the middle of a battle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercurius View Post
Fun fact: If 2 champions, one using a heal and the other using a damage reduce shield of equal amounts are both being attacked by a minion the champ with the heal will die first.
This makes no sense. Your champion has 400 HP left, the shield will absorb 300, giving you an effective 700. Or, your champion has 400 HP left, you heal for 300, you have 700 actual health. You will die at the same time, saying the two are exactly equal like this.

What I assume you mean, however, is that Janna's will actually give a bonus to attack, thus causing the minion to die faster, likely because a minion cannot actually break the shield that quickly, where as a single champion would one or two shot it. I also assume you mean that the shield has less of a cooldown compared to Taric's heal, even though Taric can reduce the cooldown by simply hitting the enemy, which he should be doing in the middle of a team fight.


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Mercurius

Senior Member

10-18-2009

Tip #1. You can pre-cast a shield, which makes you survive longer than being healed.

Tip #2. Don't give them time to sidestep howling gale. Launch it earlier or maybe stop trying to do it from max range (duh).