Ryze: Q or E?

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Warrrrax

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Senior Member

03-02-2012

The problem with E is that it just doesn't do any damage. Its more of a utility spell nowdays.

At rank 1, you MIGHT consider E. For 60 mana you can possibly deal 100 damage which is a reasonable average if you can position it right. For 70 mana with Q you deal 80.

However, E scales awfully. Its cost goes up by 15 per rank! By rank 5, it costs 120(!!) and only deals 130 damage. That's just terrible!


Sadly, Ryze has awful range and continues to get worse as Riot spews out uber range APs. You just have to take your boots+3pots and play dodgeball and farm it up. You will almost never get any harass in, without eating tons of skillshots trying.


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DeathAffect

Junior Member

03-02-2012

well the only thing i can think about is how bad e sucks now. Before they changed ryze completely he was my main and loved his e. Ult used to give you an ap boost and not mana, ryze was about ulting run in with e burst the eff out of everyone and back out he goes. Now that he's changed its all about his q and his mana. As of now i would never max out e before q or even w. Like most of the people say e doesn't scale with his core items and its just there to harass, nothing more than a poke so for me i'd focus on q first then w and leaving e for last


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MorikTheMad

Senior Member

03-02-2012

E is great. At end game. Because of the 24 MR reduction.

That and because depending on your items, once you finish AA you'll have a reasonable chunk of AP (if your game went super long), and so E will actually start to hurt a bit. But you still throw out 3x as many Qs. Throughout the entire game, Q is always your money maker. Q for damage, W for root, E for MR reduction late game.

Yes, W also does good damage. Yes, (very) late game E also does respectable damage.
But neither of those are thrown out nearly as often as Q is, and Q does as good damage.

The only use for E in early game is the nice -12 MR, a bit of damage added to your combo, and of course activating your passive. Successive ranks only add 3 to the MR reduction. The extra damage doesn't get thrown out often enough to be worthwhile.

You'll hit lvl 9, have a maxed E with 80 extra dmg per bounce compared to lvl 1, and 12 extra MR reduction. At the cost of double the mana (120 instead of 60).

Vs 8% CDR from the 4 missing ranks in Q, and 100 dmg on Q, for no mana increase.

Given Q's low cooldown, in any fight you get into, you generally (with enough CDR, which you may not have without the 8% from Q), throw out 3 Qs per E. Even if you can bounce E 3 times per cast, you are still a bit short on damage. Although the extra 12 MR reduction makes up for it a bit, I still think you are going to end up with less damage due to the lost CDR.

And poking with Q is just better, with the items you should be building. Q is going to be getting a lot of scaling--E won't. Once you buy a tear of the goddess (which happens before lvl 6 usually, unless you are hanging out for an ungodly amount of time... usually you want to recall and get it so you can start charging it), Q starts getting nice damage boosts that E just doesn't. So you won't want to be throwing the pitiful E around anyway.


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Devious Rogue

Senior Member

03-02-2012

Q because of the 3 second CD and the fact that it scales with Mana. You'll throw at least 3 Qs in most Teamfights but only 1 E.


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Warrrrax

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Senior Member

03-02-2012

Actually its more of a utility spell. Its something for Ryze to do after dropping his Q,W,Q combo...to make it Q,W,Q,E,Q,R,Q,W,Q,E,Q. Its main damage component is probably the 24 drop in magic resistance that it bestows.
But even that isn't done right since you clearly want to start with a Q, and you generally want to Snare the baddie first, so Q,W has to be the first thing. Therefore the earliest you cast E is the 4th spell.


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E07Spyde

Member

03-02-2012

The beauty of Ryze is that you build the mana/armour and mana/MR items this means that he can become very tanky very fast. In this way, his shortish range is not a weakness.

Always build for q and w. mana mana and more mana. His AP scaling is really bad. if you want a longer ranged, AP based, really squishy, burst mage than switch to Xerath or brand or ziggs. I'll stick with the tanky, sustained damage caster.


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RusMolot

Member

03-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyde Tarrix View Post
The beauty of Ryze is that you build the mana/armour and mana/MR items this means that he can become very tanky very fast. In this way, his shortish range is not a weakness.

Always build for q and w. mana mana and more mana. His AP scaling is really bad. if you want a longer ranged, AP based, really squishy, burst mage than switch to Xerath or brand or ziggs. I'll stick with the tanky, sustained damage caster.
I honestly never really thought about it this way. The thing is, until I reach lvl 4ish I have no health items, maybe my runes are just wrong, can I ask what you have in runes?


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corallein

Senior Member

03-02-2012

I run:
Magic Pen reds
Health per level yellow
Mix of flat and scaling MR glyphs (I don't have a full set of either)
Move speed quints

0/18/12 masteries.


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MorikTheMad

Senior Member

03-02-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by corallein View Post
I run:
Magic Pen reds
Health per level yellow
Mix of flat and scaling MR glyphs (I don't have a full set of either)
Move speed quints

0/18/12 masteries.
Agree with most of the above, but I suggest replacing:

Yellows with hp5/lvl (was recently convinced this is better than health/lvl). During early game, you regen far more than the extra health during your time out in lane. (At lvl 6, for instance, it takes about 45 seconds for the hp5/lvl runes to regenerate the amount of extra health that the health/lvl runes would net you.)
This makes your laning phase easier.

Flat MR glyphs if you have them. (You will be building plenty of MR later, the flats help you be tanky from the start.)

0/21/9. I don't know what he is putting 3 more points in over in utility, but I don't want to give up my 3% to max health, and my 10% tenacity-like effect. (Tenacity-like in that it functions the same, but stacks with tenacity items, if you happen to need to pick up merc treads)

That and it is fantastic to pick up the movespeed buff from defense, but you can't do without the CDR either. Getting both puts you at 20 points in defense already. Might as well cap with nice 3% max health and 10% tenacity.

In utility, I pick up the mana, summoner's insight for flash CD, and then movespeed & the buff duration increase.

Yes, losing 3 mp5 is sad, but I'd much rather have the tons of movespeed (with quints, defense tree, and utility tree, you have +9.5% movespeed).


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corallein

Senior Member

03-02-2012

Spell Vamp, duh. I tend to get Merc Treads on Ryze, so the extra Tenacity from Juggernaut is less important since it only stacks multiplicatively. It's a personal preference more than anything.

And yes, a full set of flat MR blues would be better since Ryze primarily goes up against the enemy AP carry. The HP5 vs. Health is also a personal preference thing. HP5 is better early, health is better late. Honestly though, the health per 5 seals are a little lackluster. You'd prefer to get flats since it's more important for early game, but the flats really suck and the scaling HP5 yellows become better at level 4. The flat HP5 quint is much better, but it's hard to give up MS quints for them on Ryze.