Veigar Build Questions

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Yodle

Senior Member

02-23-2012

Hey, I've mained Veigar (and also Kennen) since I started playing about a year ago and built him the same way almost every game: start Meki Pedant + pots and build into tear, then rush deathcap followed by archangels and then rylies, zonyas, etc. However, recently I've seen people say DFG is also useful to rush, so I tried that and it worked pretty well, too. I ended up combining the two builds, and am looking for some feedback

Start: Doran's Ring (since I now start with 450 health and want the extra health against the mid who usually counter picks in ranked since Veigar can be easily harassed usually)

Then I get tear/Lucky Pick for the mana + GP10 effect and rush deathcap first, followed by either the DFG or the archangels, depending on the situation. I don't really have questions about his late game, it's just the early start that really makes a difference on his ability to carry and I'm wondering if this is the best way to go about it.

Thanks for the support and sorry for posting in the wrong forum before :[

P.S. Mainly asking because two of my friends who just got to 30 started playing him and both are building him really different from guides they've found. One went straight for DFG without anything else (besides boots of course) and the other never gets tear/archangels cause he claims he doesn't need it.


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Killer10347

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Senior Member

02-23-2012

I'm no veigar pro, but I play LeBlanc a lot, and I see the two as very similar. I however recommend that you don't get doran ring at first.

If you're having issues with health, I suggest 21-9-0 or health quinces. It's far more advantageous to start with boots+3 pots because those 3 pots will give you 450 health throughout their duration versus the 100 you get from doran ring. The jungler should be feeding you blue as it is. Also, you seem to build a very very squishy veigar, which personally I don't like. there has to be some degree of health. I prefer a catalyst over a tear, though this may be wrong for veigar, I like it.

As for DFG and Deathcap, it really depends on the enemy. Is it a kennen who started with doran shield and then got a giant's belt? Go for DFG. Is it a ryze who rushed banshee? Go deathcap>Void Staff and then get DFG.

Is it some guy who isn't building any defenses? Get deathcap > DFG and then later on voidstaff.


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Yodle

Senior Member

02-23-2012

I have indeed experimented with different masteries before but I'll try doing 21/9/0 again to see if it'l help. Usually late game I'll buy either a rylias or a warmogs to be tanky, as I was telling my friend Veigar is not as dependent on AP items like other casters are; sort of like ryze and how he can tank since he scales off mana. As long as I farm my Q to around 200+, I can afford to sell/skip some common AP items and instead buy tank items and still deal as much damage as the enemy caster (usually more since awesome scaling on ultimate and it's passive). As for getting a void staff, I main a lot of AP carries and I rarely actually get it. The only times I do are when either the entire enemy team is stacking MR because that's when it's the most efficient. I remember reading somewhere that it only becomes efficient against enemies who have over 100 I believe, but I may be off on that number. Otherwise, I prefer Abyscal Septer due to it's MR as extra mrpen, but I already get some from masteries, runes, and boots (although I sometimes become unconventional late game and sell sorc's for mobility or tankier boots, cause honestly when you're bursting for damage in the thousands, an extra 20 damage isn't all that useful as say tenacity to keep you alive or mobility during teamfights).
Just opinions though :]


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Stunnie

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Member

02-23-2012

I agree with many other great answers being made in this forum, but Veigar is based greatly off of his AP.

First off I usually start with a Meki pendant. I tend to build a tear first to sustain and have a constant poking advantage, but as with most Veigar players such as myself it is hard to keep the lane when there is a jungler lurking around. Usually after building a tear, I go for the Sorc Boots then Rylai's just for more endurance in HP or I go straight for the deathcap for power. Building towards tankiness first may sound horrible due to the fact that Veigar may be weak in combat, but the fact comes out to play out pretty well for me. I have won many games with Veigar this way. Don't ask me how, but I do. I sustain long enough for an extra Q or another nuke.

Remember, Veigar is a burst damage champion and needs AP, so to feed his evil thirst I go for the DFG. I love to spam with Ryze and Wukong, so why not Veigar? The CD it gives for Veigar will be of great help especially when your nuke takes a bit to CD. As for the void staff, it's an effy for me due to the fact that it does not help you in many games since not many players in LoL bothers with MR unless it the enemy team is either AP based or AP champions are becoming a problem.

I play more odd than others. To finish off my Tear, I go for the Archangel because it becomes highly effective late game. Then Mejai if I am getting fed or MORE DEATHCAPS because I feel like it.

I agree with Yodle about the boots at late game. Veigar is extremely powerful in late game, so there's no need for sorc boots. Early game is crucial for Veigar as you know from playing him. Well there are my thoughts and experience with Veigar.For masteries it's the usual 21/9/0 for massive damage. This may not help you much because it is an odd build and builds are pretty much based on playing style, but I hope it helps you in some way.


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Yodle

Senior Member

02-24-2012

Thanks for the thoughts, I'm mostly asking to help my friends who like to think the guides they read online are the only way to play. For instance, my friend insists on getting a RoA 30-50 minutes into a game on Ryze instead of rushing it (he rushes tear and frozen heart/BV instead). I tell him if you're going to get RoA in a game, it's best early so you can farm and snowball easier, but he insists on getting it as one of his last items and won't listen to my argument :| I also realize that rushing DFG on Veigar works very well on him, but the thing about Veigar is you want more Q farm early on so you can carry harder late game, so getting the tear first and then rushing DFG and/or deathcap works wonders. To me, it seems getting the tear so you can stay passive and farm (I usually let the enemy push to avoid ganks because like you said Veigar is very susceptible to these) and then after laning phase finishes I have enough farm to be about 100 AP head of the enemy.


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General Sassycat

Senior Member

02-24-2012

Okay so first of, don't go 21/9/0 or 21/0/9 . You don't do this for the same reason you never get ignite instead of teleport (although I'd trade out my tele for ignite if my team didn't bother to grab one against a team with a vlad).
The reason you don't do this is because he doesn't need it. Veigar has ridiculous burst already, why the hell are you trying to increase that instead of dealing with his weaknesses first?
9/0/21 is the best mastery setup for Veigar considering his ridiculous early game mana consumption. The CDR, mana regen, ms and summoner spell CDR are all things that help Veigar sustain longer in lane, and as everyone knows if you don't beat a Veigar in lane your ****ed.
Okay so items. Don't rush DFG, its dumb. Your too squishy for too long, it gives you horrible stats and isn't increasing your damage by much as opposed to going cata - dcap as your first items. Think about it this way. With catalyst and large rod you will be doing the same amount of damage to squishy champs which is who you will be targeting early game if you are roaming for kills. Basically the active on DFG isn't as strong as it could be against squishier champs and you are doing about the same damage as alternate builds, except your squishier. You could make the argument that it would work against a tanky mid laner, but because of the lack of ap on DFG your spells won't finish off the other 70% of the enemy's health. And tanky sustain mid laners that make sense for using this method like swain and kennen are actually champs that are a big pain for veigar if they are good, and will probably deny you a fair amount of farm whilst your still weak pre-6, which means you can't just say *I'll make up for the lack of ap by farming".
Overall DFG is an amazing item, but not something you build first. The first items on most AP casters give sustain or defence and are relatively cheap, such as hextech revolver and catalyst, or stacking dorans rings. The only time you get away with making fiendish or kages pick first is if your opponent is stupid.
Now lets look at tears. As a first item i personally would say no. Catalyst is better for mana IMO, and arc angels isn't something i would build every time on him. Yeah it gives a fair amount of mana stats and ap but because Veigar can farm his AP there really is no need. The only time i would build AA is if I've turned my catalyst into a banshees or RoA, and decided that the enemy team isn't focusing me and i can get away with dropping zhonyas for it.
Now i'm going to give a quick mention to my first few items. This is the part where you disregard everything i say because no one else builds it so it MUST be bad. I start boots pretty much every game, after which i buy chalice, sorcs and catalyst in whatever order i deem fit for the situation (most of the time chalice comes first). The reason why chalice is in there is because it gives some mana regen, 30 mag resist and its passive stacks with Veigar's passive. It basically means you can continue to q farm indefinitely, and if you want to get aggressive you don't have to stop farming for too long to get enough mana to combo with. Not to mention that an extra 30 mag resist before 10 minutes is a fair amount.

Okay so usually i go boots>chalice>cata/ sorcs>cata/sorcs>deathcap>DFG>Void staff>RoA/Banshees>Zhonyas/AA

I consider Deathcap, DFG and void to be core on Veigar. Deathcap is obvious, DFG just synergises so well with Veigar and the fact that he can Q farm any lack of Ap on the items he buys, but then there is void. A couple of people here seem to think it is an iffy item, that you buy it only when necessary. Guess what? It is always necessary. In every DECENT enemy team at least one person is going to have enough magres late game to ruin your damage. Champs like Nasus, Shyvana, Riven, Irelia, Renekton; basically most, if not all, of top laners. These champs will have an annoying amount of mag res late game and still wreck your whole team. Situations like these are common and great for void staff. You can easily instakill the AD or AP carry without using your DFG, and then use your DFG and continuous combos on the fed top laner to down them before they eat your carries.
Also there is the fact that smart AP casters and AD ranged carries will build Banshees against you.

Lets move on to Rylais. Most of the time its not that useful. You just instakilled the stunned ap carry, that slow was really useful...not. hat's not to say it is useless on Veigar. If you were versing a tankier sort of team that didn't have any hard gap closers (lee sin q, shyvana ult, ww ult) then rylais would be great for kiting. Maybe you wouldn't contribute as much to the teamfight but at least you didn't feed the Udyr. You also kept him out of the fight. And murdered him.
Yodle's comment... blah blah blah.... something something... sell sorcs for mobility or mercs. So yeah i wouldn't say this is a bad idea. Mercs could be good against a team with a lot of cc. Mobility wouldn't be as effective though. People seem to think Veigar is just this Champ that instakills someone and then walks out of the fights, coming back 10 seconds later when his stun is off cooldown to try it again. But Veigar is constantly in the fight. After he melts his target he should be throwing out q's and w's every chance he gets. So, yeah, not using the mobility at all basically. You could say get swift boots but 20 extra ms isn't worth the trade. Mercs is the only other option, really.
As for mejais... I wouldn't say never... Well, here's the thing. If your enemy is retarded enough you can build whatever you like, but in a decent game you will never get mejais. I have never been in a game where I have been fed enough that mejais would have been worth it if i had gotten it earlier on, without being focused so much that eventually, i would have lost the stacks. Veigar has a slight global taunt because of his burst, but having mejais would just increase that exponentially.

So basically, focus on his weakness with runes and masteries, build defence/sustain first, void staff is core, rylais and AA are very situational, mejais is stupid.

Oh, and back when i used to build chalice, sorcs and all the GP5 items apart from avarice? Yea, that's less retarded than tears or DFG first, and it also works better.


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Yodle

Senior Member

02-24-2012

Interesting points, I think I'll try getting tankier early to see how that works with the health bonus of catalyst or the MR of chalice. I always assumed Veigar didn't really need the chalice since as you said it's his passive and despite the fact it stacks there's other options for him that would make more sense late game. I have seen some really wacky (and also tried them out myself) builds for Veigar, such as Lichbane and WoTA as two end game items when your AP is in the 700-1000 range due to the insane damage your AA's will be doing because of all your AP and life you get back. I'd like to try the lichbane, but I think I'd let someone else get that WoTA, like a support or something.

As for building a voidstaff though, I really do think it's not useful unless they have multiple people stacking MR. If the only person doing so is their tank, you shouldn't be focusing on them anyway. Your first job in every team fight is to kill the enemy AP carry, and with good positioning/decent team that will protect you for the vital second or two you need to get close enough to DFG + Ult you'll accomplish your goal. With that combination their AP carry is 95% of the time instantly killed assuming it's pretty far into the game around the 30 minute mark and you both have some AP and health. After you rid the fight of that carry, you probably should focus on the AD Carry, who's damage probably outdoes the AP carry you just killed, but wasting your ultimate and DFG on this person is a waste since they usually have less health and no AP whatsoever. This is where you'd use the stun you saved up by not using it on the AP carry: disruption for 2.5 seconds, allowing not only you to use your standard combo but also your AD carry to get a decent amount of hits off, and by this point they'll be dead too most of the time. As long as you take out these two primary targets, you can leave the tank who has all of the MR to the rest of your team (I'm not saying you can't attack him, but you seriously don't need to itemize around one champion who most of the time doesn't do damage). I'd only get the staff if their AP and/or AD carries were building some MR like a BV or GA.

Edit: Oh and you're not alone with trying out all those GP10 items ^_^. I've done it I just feel like getting the pick early is the best choice since you'll just sell the others soon to build your core build. I'm not sure how long it takes for them to be worth the gold you originally spend on them so I may be wrong, but I think you need to have them for a decent amount of time, and you could be using those slots for the rest of your build (the parts anyway so it's easier to snowball)


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General Sassycat

Senior Member

02-24-2012

Yeah the GP5 worked because they paid back the difference in a couple of minutes and then some, and by the time you sold them (or turned pick into DFG) you'd already made some extra profit and you could sell those items for a quick gold boost anyways. People look at it as if its an 825g waste but between when you buy it an sell it you make enough money to make several 100 gold profit, which gives you an edge later on. Like getting all your core items by 30 minutes with no kills and average farm.
As for void staff, i say its core because good teams will build MR. As in EVERYONE. The ad carry and ap carry will have banshees, FoN will be on the tank and bruisers. Good teams no that to counter Veigar you just get early mag res or shut him down pre-6.
As for damage mitigation, i find that it depends on the enemy. No banshees means i can instakill 2 people. Banshees means i can only instakill 1. This is because, with banshees, i need to clear the shield and then DFG, ult, q to kill them. If they dont have banshees though, i can just stun W, R, Q and they are dead. A couple of seconds later i can DFG Q the AD carry for nearly all their health, or wait for my stun and just stun, W, DFG, Q them. Yeah DFG doesn't do as much damage to squishy characters, but its a different situation in teamfights to roaming. At roaming point you usually only ahve one main item, because it is laning phase still. In teamfights you have the AP to back up your DFG. So even though DFG doesn't do as much dmg to squishies, it still does enough to the ad carry that you can instakill them with your basic combo. Yeah dfg does more dmg to their tank or bruiser, but unless the tank or bruiser is fed and is carrying the enemy team your better off wrecking the AP and AD Carries. Oh and if its swain or morgana or a tanky ap caster. Thats another time i would have to use DFG as well on them, instead of saving it for another champ.