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It's too hard for Mages to hit 40% cdr cap

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larkhill

Senior Member

02-19-2012

ok. lets look at the opportunity cost of this early cdr mage build. ill use lvl 4 as the starting point since thats where u realistically start out at

Masteries

first off, 8 points in the offensive tree for 4%.

required for the magic pen mastery. there is no better mastery to get for any ap champ. there is virtually no discussion here. not even an issue.

Glyphs

9 cdr blues ill use the flat cdr ones just cause its easier.

.65% cdr

your alternatives are:
**bolded the useful ones**

.05% cdr per lvl
.57 m.pen
.99 ap
.17 ap per lvl
.15 m.res per lvl
1.49 m.res
.7 armor
2.67 hp
.54 hp per lvl
.27 hp regen per 5
.161 energy per lvl
2.2 energy
.055 mp5 per lvl
.31 mp5
1.42 mana per lvl
11.25 mana
.56% crit dmg
.04 ad per lvl
.28 ad
.28% crit chance
.64 as

at lvl 4, 5.85 cdr vs 1.8% cdr vs 5.13% m.pen vs 8.91 ap vs 6.12 ap

its a tossup here. personally, i value cdr more than anything else here. maybe the m.pen is better but honestly, % m.pen at such a low amt of m.res is meaningless. cdr wins this one again

CDR Boots

first off, u need boots anyway so not getting them is invalid. so ur going to spend this slot early on anyway. its just a matter of what u get

ionion boots - 15% cdr

your alternatives are:

bers greaves - 25% atk speed
boots of mobility - 5 out of combat, 2 in combat
swiftness - 3 all the time
merc treads - 25 mr, 35 tenacity
ninja tabi - 25 armor 10% reduction of auto attacks
sorc shoes - 20 m.pen


it all depends on how much u value your cdr. personally, i dont feel like merc treads too much. nothing i can do will make me tanky enough to survive dmg as a mage anyway. that little bit of MR wont do much.

MP vs CDR is tough. id rather be able to cast spells twice in a fight rather than have my 1 spell do 20 more dmg. sorc is only better for a 1v1 fight and even then, not always.

ill call this one a tie depending on how much u value cdr or m.pen


Kindlegem

its simply too good of an item to pass up. u can build it into 3 VERY useful items.

• sweeper prevents people from juking away i nthe jungle and prevents people from surprising you from the bushes. and the stats on it arent too bad either.

• shurelias. movement speed op. simple enough

• spirit visage for survivability. makes any champ with spell vamp basically unkillable. double wota + shurelias is insane



honestly, there isnt a mage in the game that wont benefit from rushing cdr boots/kindlegem early. cdr is simply too good.


ill say it again. cdr is too easy to get.


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Phourc

Senior Member

02-19-2012

Haha, on mages I find early fiendish codex + 10% masteries + 6% from runes is a good 25%. That's really plenty for beginning game where your mana often can't keep up.

Pen boots and MP5 glyphs are IMO not worth sacrificing for max cdr, which you can easily get to by finishing the morellos.


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ManPandas

Member

02-19-2012

Deathfire's Grasp
Hextech Sweeper
Fiendish Codex (#2)
-----------------------------------
5725 gold
+300 HP
+130 AP
+17 MP/5
+35% CDR
(with +4 from talents you're at 39% - if that last 1% is so important, I'd suggest getting 3x YELLOW Flat CDR runes because they get to 0.9% without cutting AP or Magic Pen Runes).
This also leaves your boots open. If you want to Skip DFG, then run Ionian's. In Dominion I think Deathfire is more powerful than Rabadin's anyhow. That Activated is incredibly strong in a Duel or small battle, which are more common than 5-on-5 SR style battles.

If you run out of room and still have gold to burn, you can Sell Hextech and pick up Morello's Evil Tomb (if you already have codex its only a few hundred gold + the return on hextech). Or you could just rush Tomb and then Grab DFG after for under 5k Gold total for the two items, more AP, and the same 35% CDR

Oh and one more path for you...
If you're facing off against heavy Physical damage, Glacial Shroud + Codex is UNDER 3k gold for 25% CDR and great secondary stats. Then you upgrade that to DFG and Frozen Heart to get to the same 35% CDR Goal (again with 4% talents and 1% from 3x Yellow runes).

I don't see how that's "Hard" to achieve. None of these plans use Boots, Blue Runes, Red Runes, or Quints. And can be customized based on their team. Hell you could even start with Philo-stone and go for Shurellia's in a pinch if you felt DFG wasn't needed.


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RealWolf M

Senior Member

02-19-2012

Wait.

WHo the **** builds 21 into utility? Are these people retarded?


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larkhill

Senior Member

02-19-2012

Quote:
RealWolf M:
Wait.

WHo the **** builds 21 into utility? Are these people retarded?


this is y i based my masteries section on 8 in offense


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Kiddalee

Senior Member

02-19-2012

Quote:
RealWolf M:
Wait.

WHo the **** builds 21 into utility? Are these people retarded?


That post doesn't look good on you, man.


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Hugs From Momma

Senior Member

02-19-2012

Basically we need an improved Morello's for Dominion only. Problem now is that mp/5 has a huge cost associated with it and is basically wasted on Dom.

Wish Riot would read these threads, or we had some type of dev interaction about this mode.

It's a little bleak.


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v4v3nd3774

Senior Member

02-19-2012

Quote:
Larkhill:
ok. lets look at the opportunity cost of this early cdr mage build. ill use lvl 4 as the starting point since thats where u realistically start out at

Masteries

first off, 8 points in the offensive tree for 4%.

required for the magic pen mastery. there is no better mastery to get for any ap champ. there is virtually no discussion here. not even an issue.

Glyphs

9 cdr blues ill use the flat cdr ones just cause its easier.

.65% cdr

your alternatives are:
**bolded the useful ones**

.05% cdr per lvl
.57 m.pen
.99 ap
.17 ap per lvl
.15 m.res per lvl
1.49 m.res
.7 armor
2.67 hp
.54 hp per lvl
.27 hp regen per 5
.161 energy per lvl
2.2 energy
.055 mp5 per lvl
.31 mp5
1.42 mana per lvl
11.25 mana
.56% crit dmg
.04 ad per lvl
.28 ad
.28% crit chance
.64 as

at lvl 4, 5.85 cdr vs 1.8% cdr vs 5.13% m.pen vs 8.91 ap vs 6.12 ap

its a tossup here. personally, i value cdr more than anything else here. maybe the m.pen is better but honestly, % m.pen at such a low amt of m.res is meaningless. cdr wins this one again

CDR Boots

first off, u need boots anyway so not getting them is invalid. so ur going to spend this slot early on anyway. its just a matter of what u get

ionion boots - 15% cdr

your alternatives are:

bers greaves - 25% atk speed
boots of mobility - 5 out of combat, 2 in combat
swiftness - 3 all the time
merc treads - 25 mr, 35 tenacity
ninja tabi - 25 armor 10% reduction of auto attacks
sorc shoes - 20 m.pen


it all depends on how much u value your cdr. personally, i dont feel like merc treads too much. nothing i can do will make me tanky enough to survive dmg as a mage anyway. that little bit of MR wont do much.

MP vs CDR is tough. id rather be able to cast spells twice in a fight rather than have my 1 spell do 20 more dmg. sorc is only better for a 1v1 fight and even then, not always.

ill call this one a tie depending on how much u value cdr or m.pen


Kindlegem

its simply too good of an item to pass up. u can build it into 3 VERY useful items.

• sweeper prevents people from juking away i nthe jungle and prevents people from surprising you from the bushes. and the stats on it arent too bad either.

• shurelias. movement speed op. simple enough

• spirit visage for survivability. makes any champ with spell vamp basically unkillable. double wota + shurelias is insane



honestly, there isnt a mage in the game that wont benefit from rushing cdr boots/kindlegem early. cdr is simply too good.


ill say it again. cdr is too easy to get.

Rushing Ionian boots and Kindlegem has an oppertunity cost of not being able to rush Sorc boots and a Prospector's Ring. This means LOTS of damage and some mana sustainability. The hp you get from Kindlegem is exactly a draw with the hp you'd otherwise get from Prospector's Ring. So this ends up being a clear case of 25%cdr vs another mage having 30AP 20pen and 7mp5.

Math on how much damage 20pen does for you:

Standard earlygame 30mr target being pen'd by 8.5Pen(Marks) = 22.5 mr or 18.36%reduction.

Standard earlygame 30mr target being pen'd by 28.5Pen(Marks+Sorcs) = 1.5 mr or 1.47%reduction.

As you can see, on a standard 30mr target this is an increase of 16.89% damage, not even including the 30AP. Pre 9 30AP, when abilities arn't maxed yet and you're relying more heavily on ratios, means a lot. 30AP on a .8 ratio ability is 24damage. Pre 9 abilities rarely go over 200(until they max at 9). Even at 200base damage and a .8 ratio 24damage is over a 10% increase. For your other abilities that are left at lvl 1 for some time the base damage is often around 60-80 with the same ratios. 24additional damage on an 80damage ability is a greater than 25% increase(roughly 80 to 104). Without getting into champion specifics and actually calculating the damage for each of their abilities it's safe to say that Sorcs+Prospector's is a ****ton of damage.

You're looking at a baseline of 16.89% damage being increased vs base mr targets(squishies) and at least 10-20% on abilities from AP, based on how you level your skills and the base damages. You're hoping that the 25%cdr you took over the other build(they both get 4%) offsets that. Imo that does not, unless you're a very cdr centric champion that can push out multiple rotations of abilities in a small time and then you're hoping to break even at best. Heaven forbid the mp5 sustainability comes into play, as it can at the fight for top without that 7mp5.

Because I took a look at a 30mr target, I'll also list the damage increase of a standard 30mr target that runs flat mr glyphs(13mr).

Standard earlygame 30mr target with 13mr from glyphs being pen'd by 8.5Pen(Marks) = 34.5 mr or 25.65%reduction.

Standard earlygame 30mr target with 13mr from glyphs being pen'd by 28.5Pen(Marks+Sorcs) = 14.5 mr or 12.66%reduction.

As you can see this is a 12.99% increase in damage and again this isn't including the 30AP you get from Prospector's that can increase your base abilities by 10% to 25% depending on your base values and level of the abilities.

Conclusion, oppertunity cost too high. While CDR is easy to get CDR is hard to itemize while keeping pace with other casters.


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Melvear

Senior Member

02-19-2012

My answer is simple. 15/15/0 masteries, flat or scaling cdr blues, morellos. 37%+ cdr at level 18. While the regen isn't an amazing stat, it's useful for most casters at least to a degree, and it's not a super expensive item.


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v4v3nd3774

Senior Member

02-19-2012

My only contention with CDR has been that it's hard to get early in flat amounts while scaling with other casters' AP when they forgo CDR. Sure anyone can have 40% cdr on their 4th item or scaling masteries at 18, but I thought this discussion was about getting cdr early.

From the OP: "While mages can build cdr items this detracts from building Rabadon's which is a very important mage item." Speaking of itemizing it pre-Deathcap, which IMO is not doable with out sacrificing tons of damage, as I outlined in my previous post.