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How many games do you expect to play before you reach your true Elo?

< 10 Games 180 1.63%
11-40 Games 819 7.4%
41-80 Games 1162 10.5%
81-120 Games 1738 15.71%
121-160 Games 665 6.01%
161-200 Games 930 8.41%
200-399 Games 1703 15.39%
400-599 Games 1089 9.84%
600-799 Games 457 4.13%
800-999 Games 170 1.54%
1000+ Games 2143 19.37%
Voters 11063 .

Help Riot improve matchmaking! Looking for examples of bad matchmaking

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Lyte

Lead Social Systems Designer

Follow RiotLyte on Twitter

02-18-2012

Quote:
Cerys:
My main problem with elo is duo queues. Duo queues seem to often be on the losing end, unless it's like two pro duo queues.

I can't even recall if I've won a game with a duo, but I don't think very many if I have.

And whenever I'm grouped with a duo queued pair, they seem to be pretty bad often. I dunno what it is, but I really feel like this is a bad aspect of solo/duo queue. I can deal with it, but I dislike it.

Another thing to go along with that is if duo queues are left in, it'd be nice if there was a cap for it. Like... I played a game earlier where a 1580 queued with an unranked(4 wins, who knows how many losses, the dude played like an 1100ish player). The only "saving grace" for that was that we only lost 6 elo for the loss there, but then the enemy team only gained 6 so...

I feel like the game shouldn't let you get into matches like that in a ranked atmosphere. Like if you're attempting to duo with someone far below your elo where the game is going to supposedly put a vast advantage towards one side and skew the elo gains/losses because of that, then those people shouldn't be able to queue together.


Cerys, when you duo queue, what are you and your friend's Elo(s) usually?


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Clerigon

Senior Member

02-18-2012

Quote:
GrimJaww:
how to fix ranked elo.

its quite simple really. have your starting ranked elo based off your normal elo. now i dont think it should be your exact elo. not everyone plays seriously in normal games. thats what ranked is for. but after playing like 200+ games to reach lvl 30 your elo is gonna be pretty close to your true ranked elo.

id say in keeping 1250 the average have players with normal elos lower then that get a boost (like 100-200 or something) and have players higher get a deduction (-100 to -200 or something). we will all still start off around the same place but there will be far more wiggle room were the bad players will start at the lower spectrum and the better players start at the high.


+1
Is stupid think if i practice for months in normal game i gonna start in the same zone with fresh lvl 30 or people with 300 ranked games.


Duo queue is a problem in ranked games, because its supposed to be SOLO queue, and not; hey my 1800 elo friend is gonna carry me to high elo! yea!


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Sayath

Senior Member

02-18-2012

Quote:
Clerigon:
+1
Is stupid think if i practice for months in normal game i gonna start in the same zone with fresh lvl 30 or people with 300 ranked games.


Duo queue is a problem in ranked games, because its supposed to be SOLO queue, and not; hey my 1800 elo friend is gonna carry me to high elo! yea!


You do realize that duoqueue only gives actual benefits for the better player if you know that your 'no-ranked-games'-friend is actually better than the elo he's displayed at? If he's not, carrying a game as a 1,8k against 5 1,6k with one 1,2k on your team might be difficult.
If that 1,2k elo friend can hold his own / at least tie with such players / not lose horribly, he deserves to be ranked higher.
If he's not however, god beware - those 1,6k players will feed a 1,8k - at what rate a below 1,2k can feed a 1,6k however - have fun dealing with a dominating and worse enemy. Guess what - that game is pretty much lost.

First summary
: Duoqueue is only advantageous for you if your friend is below his true ELO.

On the topic of 'raising one's friend displayed ELO'. You thought duoqueue is good for that? Due to how the systems works raising the friends ELO in duoqueue comes at a disadvantage to your own. This is based on the assumption that your friend does not belong on the displayed ELO. You'll simply lose way too often. Your friend will still rise - because your account will take the ELO losses instead.

The gap only gets smaller, never wider. On wins the low-elo gains more, on losses he loses less.

If you just want to have a 'big number', in order to show off - just give him your login credentials (I do in no way support this - but it's how it works in the real world). He'll easily climb the ladder - because he knows how to play. Soon you will be on his ELO while his account didn't even lose one point of ELO. Fair deal.

Second summary: Account sharing > Duoqueue in regards to ELO raising.


---------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------


The real world - what duoqueue really is? Take a good look at my attached file.

What do you see?

STREAKS UPON STREAKS OF FORTH & FIFTH Pick


Forth & fifth pick? Yeah that's long term Duoqueue.

Did I also mention that I HATE PLAYING BOTTOM? It simply does not work with our playstyles. Our fault, true.

BUT:
In a fair world for all duoqueuers we wouldn't be ranked 4.+5. all the time.
Instead it should look like this:
1.+2. - 25%
2.+3. - 25%
3.+4. - 25%
4.+5. - 25%
[only taking sequence placements into account (clear majority of games) ]

Then I might actually have a lot more fun. I enjoy playing Akali. I enjoy playing mid. I LOVE playing Akali mid.
Might even show ELO-wise.

Sweet dreams.

---------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------


CONCLUSION:
Duoqueue is not a problem ELO-wise. There are simpler ways to have 'the bigger number'. However, the matchmaking process for duoqueues needs to be improved. Randomize their position. A close duoqueue (30 ELO delta) shouldn't be matched 4. & 5. all the time. Thanks.


@Lyte: I did sent you my data. What has come off it so far? I love updates. If you need anything else, please sent me a message. I'd gladly help improving my favorite game.


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Contravariant

Senior Member

02-18-2012

Have you seen this poll: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=26506
?

6.6% think they're rated too high.
76.7% think they're rated too low.


I think this reveals some interesting psychological factors that determine whether a matchmaking system is perceived to be accurate.

It might be interesting to compare this poll to polls of other standardized measurements like IQ.
Unfortunately I could not find any free papers with data on peoples perceived IQs.

Obviously, there are problems with this poll(response bias, etc.), but it might give you a better perspective on:

Is matchmaking unfair or just perceived to be?
Can matchmaking be changed so that it is perceived to be fairer, without making it unfair to a minority?
If matchmaking is fair, will your players be satisfied?


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Suspended in air

Senior Member

02-18-2012

this matchmaking system as it is somehow creates extremely streaky amounts of winning and losing. i have no idea why this happens but for me this is true


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Lyte

Lead Social Systems Designer

Follow RiotLyte on Twitter

02-18-2012

Quote:
Contravariant:
Have you seen this poll: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=26506
?

6.6% think they're rated too high.
76.7% think they're rated too low.


I think this reveals some interesting psychological factors that determine whether a matchmaking system is perceived to be accurate.

It might be interesting to compare this poll to polls of other standardized measurements like IQ.
Unfortunately I could not find any free papers with data on peoples perceived IQs.

Obviously, there are problems with this poll(response bias, etc.), but it might give you a better perspective on:

Is matchmaking unfair or just perceived to be?
Can matchmaking be changed so that it is perceived to be fairer, without making it unfair to a minority?
If matchmaking is fair, will your players be satisfied?


There was a popular academic paper that also described similar results. In a typical workplace, the average person rated their own skill and competence as "above average." The irony is... we know it is impossible for the average person to be above average

However, perception is an important ingredient that we do need to consider in all systems in League.


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Pandora K

Recruiter

02-18-2012

I'm curious, is there any effort going on to fix the ranked 5's matchmaking system? I know that the TEAM'S elo is what it's based on, but a team with Spellsy, Capt. Korea and 3 other 1900+ ELO players will stop a team that plays at the ~1500 elo level. Any way to avoid that sort of matchmaking issue? (i've run into it thee times that i can think of in my team's ~35 games)


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MinusTheMuse

Recruiter

02-18-2012

ive gotten a few games screen shotted with a short write up on the game. My roommates are doing the same and given their info to me, so you can probably expect a big email within the next few days Lyte.


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Lyte

Lead Social Systems Designer

Follow RiotLyte on Twitter

02-18-2012

Quote:
MinusTheMuse:
ive gotten a few games screen shotted with a short write up on the game. My roommates are doing the same and given their info to me, so you can probably expect a big email within the next few days Lyte.


Looking forward to it, thank you!


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Lyte

Lead Social Systems Designer

Follow RiotLyte on Twitter

02-18-2012

Quote:
Pandora K:
I'm curious, is there any effort going on to fix the ranked 5's matchmaking system? I know that the TEAM'S elo is what it's based on, but a team with Spellsy, Capt. Korea and 3 other 1900+ ELO players will stop a team that plays at the ~1500 elo level. Any way to avoid that sort of matchmaking issue? (i've run into it thee times that i can think of in my team's ~35 games)


Yes, there are on-going efforts to improve all aspects of matchmaking across game modes (Normal, Normal Draft, Ranked), maps (Summoner's Rift, Dominion and Twisted Treeline) and queue types (Solo/Duo Queue, Ranked Teams).