How many games do you expect to play before you reach your true Elo?

< 10 Games 180 1.63%
11-40 Games 819 7.42%
41-80 Games 1,162 10.52%
81-120 Games 1,737 15.73%
121-160 Games 664 6.01%
161-200 Games 929 8.41%
200-399 Games 1,703 15.42%
400-599 Games 1,085 9.82%
600-799 Games 456 4.13%
800-999 Games 170 1.54%
1000+ Games 2,139 19.37%
Voters: 11044. You may not vote on this poll

Help Riot improve matchmaking! Looking for examples of bad matchmaking

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Iceciro

Senior Member

03-16-2012

I have to say, a vote-kick system is the best option I've heard so far. If anyone has a better plan I'd like to hear it, but I largely side with the 'four people versus one person's enjoyment' mentality. If the trolls use the kick system to deny someone a match by kicking them for no reason, that person just goes back into que. Going back into que to look for a new ranked match is much less painful than experiencing and losing an entire match (which must be at least 20m to surrender) and then also losing ELO on top of it.


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Lyte

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Lead Social Systems Designer

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03-16-2012
150 of 173 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceciro View Post
I have to say, a vote-kick system is the best option I've heard so far. If anyone has a better plan I'd like to hear it, but I largely side with the 'four people versus one person's enjoyment' mentality. If the trolls use the kick system to deny someone a match by kicking them for no reason, that person just goes back into que. Going back into que to look for a new ranked match is much less painful than experiencing and losing an entire match (which must be at least 20m to surrender) and then also losing ELO on top of it.
From what I have seen in data and discussions, is that a vote-kick system will help a lot of use cases, but also create an almost equal amount of damage.

It is not necessarily 'four people versus one person's enjoyment.' What typically happens in scenarios is a group of 4 friends, even if they are not trolls, simply want the 5th person to play a specific role. Then, they will keep kicking people until they get someone who is bullied into playing that role. So for every group of 4, they will kick up to 3-4 people until someone reluctantly volunteers to satisfy their demands.

In fact, even in scenarios where it is not a group of 4 friends, there are many cases where 4 random players all choose roles quickly and the last person is bullied into a support role--if that player refuses, they are kicked instead. This also repeats 3-4 times until someone actually volunteers to support.


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is a frog

Member

03-16-2012

The only thing that concerns me is duoqueues (in ranked) with big elo differences. For example a 2000 duoqueueing with 1700 or something similar.


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Frizalen

Senior Member

03-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
From what I have seen in data and discussions, is that a vote-kick system will help a lot of use cases, but also create an almost equal amount of damage.

It is not necessarily 'four people versus one person's enjoyment.' What typically happens in scenarios is a group of 4 friends, even if they are not trolls, simply want the 5th person to play a specific role. Then, they will keep kicking people until they get someone who is bullied into playing that role. So for every group of 4, they will kick up to 3-4 people until someone reluctantly volunteers to satisfy their demands.

In fact, even in scenarios where it is not a group of 4 friends, there are many cases where 4 random players all choose roles quickly and the last person is bullied into a support role--if that player refuses, they are kicked instead. This also repeats 3-4 times until someone actually volunteers to support.
That's precisely what would happen, and don't let a soul think otherwise.


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Eph289

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Senior Member

03-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
From what I have seen in data and discussions, is that a vote-kick system will help a lot of use cases, but also create an almost equal amount of damage.

It is not necessarily 'four people versus one person's enjoyment.' What typically happens in scenarios is a group of 4 friends, even if they are not trolls, simply want the 5th person to play a specific role. Then, they will keep kicking people until they get someone who is bullied into playing that role. So for every group of 4, they will kick up to 3-4 people until someone reluctantly volunteers to satisfy their demands.

In fact, even in scenarios where it is not a group of 4 friends, there are many cases where 4 random players all choose roles quickly and the last person is bullied into a support role--if that player refuses, they are kicked instead. This also repeats 3-4 times until someone actually volunteers to support.
I agree that's a problem, but if I can rant here just a bit in the direction of another department that you're not responsible for, maybe if support wasn't constrained to 1) getting few/no items and 2) not being able to influence the game in an increasing manner over time due to no items, then MAYBE last-pick-support-or-else wouldn't be such a chore.

I get it. Vote-kick has a lot of abuse cases and this could apply to any role. That's a flawed tendency in the community. The fact that support is viewed as the least awesome role, probably also a flawed perspective from the players. The fact that efficient play calls for supports to have no items and basically hand-hold an AD carry who may or may not be incompetent--that's on Riot. Basically, supports are required for optimal play. That doesn't make them fun unless you already enjoy supports. I do enjoy playing support, but NOT EVERY GAME, which unless I'm duo-queueing with a friend, is generally what happens in Normal Draft because I'm 80% last-pick.
</endrant>


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Gilgalion

Junior Member

03-16-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
From what I have seen in data and discussions, is that a vote-kick system will help a lot of use cases, but also create an almost equal amount of damage.

It is not necessarily 'four people versus one person's enjoyment.' What typically happens in scenarios is a group of 4 friends, even if they are not trolls, simply want the 5th person to play a specific role. Then, they will keep kicking people until they get someone who is bullied into playing that role. So for every group of 4, they will kick up to 3-4 people until someone reluctantly volunteers to satisfy their demands.

In fact, even in scenarios where it is not a group of 4 friends, there are many cases where 4 random players all choose roles quickly and the last person is bullied into a support role--if that player refuses, they are kicked instead. This also repeats 3-4 times until someone actually volunteers to support.
This is only one example of abuse. Setting up a kick feature which then puts you back in queue would essentially give everyone a free queue dodge. You don't like how things are lining up? No problem! The team just decides to kick someone (or you troll hardcore forcing the team to kick you) and then everyone gets a new shot at a "better" match up without a penalty.

All things considered I believe the kick feature would be detrimental to matchmaking in a multitude of ways.


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Floopish

Junior Member

03-16-2012

I don't have any specific cases recorded or kept track of yet, but I'll start and do my part to help the game. However I have been keeping track of my position in champion select for the Normal Draft games that I have solo-queued for the past few months.

My Solo Matches(Including re queue after dodges) 291 Total
% Rounded to 2 decimals

1st - 10 times - 3.44%
2nd - 10 times - 3.44%
3rd - 42 times - 14.43%
4th - 81 times - 27.84%
5th - 148 times - 50.86%

Solo Matches(NOT Including re queues after dodges) 173 Total
% Rounded to 2 decimals

1st - 3 times - 1.73%
2nd - 3 times - 1.73%
3rd - 24 times - 13.87%
4th - 45 times - 26.01%
5th - 98 times - 56.65%

Obviously my position isn't very evenly distributed. My reasoning for separating them into two categories is because I felt that the re-queues would not be ideal matchmaking situation since the people that are in the match largely are in the re-queue as well. However with this the data is similar and over a large enough sample to show some validity.

Normal Draft is preferring duos and I feel that this makes a bad situation for soloers vs 4 man premades. My idea is just to keep everything the same in terms of picking the 10 players, but to just RANDOMLY assign the players to the 1-5 spots. In theory this would give players who don't get to 1st/2nd pick often the chance but would still let the players cooperate without 5th getting stuck into being reported or possibly playing a role they are not good at and getting blamed for loss when they asked for something different.


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S4K3

Senior Member

03-16-2012

I personally think the vote kick could be an excellent tool for ranked solo Q but not for normal games. Normal games are meant to be competitive but at the same time allow you to practice and experiment with different champions making you a more valuable asset when playing ranked.

Essentially being someone with pretty low elo (1350) I have been hit with the troll stick pretty hard when last pick just chooses their champion completely based off of what they feel like doing. If this person gets targeted by a vote kick its because the team as a whole decided that the person in question isn't choosing the optimal champion to complete the 5 man team. The meta exists for a reason and not to mention success in LoL is very team dependent, this includes different combinations of champions and good team spirit. If a person just chooses what ever champion they feel like playing in the moment not only does it hinder the team combination but also starts the game off on a bad foot. So in my eyes kicking that person doesn't change much considering everyone just gets thrown back in queue with no other penalties allowing you to re-queue in hopes of finding a team with better chemistry.

On a last note, I've been in countless ranked games where I have predicted the loss from champion select. That being said it's not like I don't try due to my intuition, in fact I try even harder to carry but its still incredibly frustrating when that last pick yii goes 0-5 in 9 minutes....

TLDR; vote ban should be considered, because there is nothing worse than landing a team that just makes you want to cry and there is nothing that makes this game more enjoyable then when you get on a team that has excellent chemistry and good knowledge of the game ( win or lose)


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Lyte

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Lead Social Systems Designer

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03-16-2012
151 of 173 Riot Posts

Vote-kicking is not off the table permanently--I am just raising the concerns and pointing out that it is not as clear-cut a solution as players may think.


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Face2Masher

Junior Member

03-16-2012

Here's an example, Lyte

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=1532073