Is Thornmail too good on Dominion?

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WaterD103

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Senior Member

02-16-2012

a) You can't counter thornmail

b) The reason other armor items are more common is that Thornmail is only amazing against a more narrow range of champs

C) The fact that only completly destroys a few champs makes it a terrible item to be in the game.

Yeah, the answer to thornmail is to not pick champs that get destroyed by thornmail, that's an unhealthy solution.


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Isleen

Member

02-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulstan View Post
Thornmail is easily countered by building some MR.

I don't think it is too strong at all: build a balanced team and you probably won't even see the enemy using it.
The problem with Thornmail in Dominion is that lifesteal is nerfed. I had Caitlyn with Merc Threads AND Wits End, and 24 MR runes. On top of that I had a Black Cleaver and a BloodThirster (the Dominion version) for damage and life steal. Despite this the Thornmail damage was still outstripping my self heal damage. This is the problem. Life steal has been seriously nerfed in Dominion, but Thornmail hasn't.


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Uthgar

Recruiter

02-20-2012

Thornmail applies damage returned before armor is taken into account. Just make it not do that and it should be ok.


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jars

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Senior Member

02-20-2012

thornmail is so bad. I was playing trundle, a straight up auto attacker yesterday and their irelia tried to counter me with a thornmail. I killed her 1v1 at bot with 80% health left because I had a sanguine and last whisper(I ended the game with 31 kills).

if you think your champion is countered by thornmail buy a last whisper and sanguine. it's not like those are items you never buy on an ad champ.


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v4v3nd3774

Senior Member

02-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by jars View Post
thornmail is so bad. I was playing trundle, a straight up auto attacker yesterday and their irelia tried to counter me with a thornmail. I killed her 1v1 at bot with 80% health left because I had a sanguine and last whisper(I ended the game with 31 kills).

if you think your champion is countered by thornmail buy a last whisper and sanguine. it's not like those are items you never buy on an ad champ.
This pretty much. Thornmail is a niche item that is simply armor + a passive that effectively reduces your current lifesteal by x [x = (autoattackdamage*.3) - magic damage reduction)]. For instance if you currently attack for 100, have 30% lifesteal and 30(base)mr(23%reduction or 6.9 reduced) thornmail is returning 23.1 damage a swing but you're gaining 30HP a swing. Your lifesteal has been effectively reduced to 6.9 returned a swing from 30.

Counter the counter item. This means you stop building attackspeed(zeals), Master Yi, and you build some MR(negatron) that you likely need anyway(QSS) and more lifesteal. The biggest problem I see people have with thornmail is just building straight into LW and still dieing on it. You can get LW later when the majority of the team(not just one person) has built armor. MR and additional lifesteal isn't neccessiarly going to make you weaker vs everyone else, but it will help you substantially vs that Thronmail. If 5 people build Thornmail congratulations you've just forced 10,000+ gold in itemization by the other team and countered it with Negatron(740), additional lifesteal(450-1600~) and LW(which you were building anyways by this time, 2300~).


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Rebonack

Senior Member

02-20-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by jars View Post
thornmail is so bad. I was playing trundle, a straight up auto attacker yesterday and their irelia tried to counter me with a thornmail. I killed her 1v1 at bot with 80% health left because I had a sanguine and last whisper(I ended the game with 31 kills).

if you think your champion is countered by thornmail buy a last whisper and sanguine. it's not like those are items you never buy on an ad champ.
Or Sanguine and Cleaver if your champ happens to have a nice source of armor pen or armor shred already.

Sanguine, armor pen, and an Oden's does a number on the effectiveness of Thornmail.


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Glorious Bird

Senior Member

02-20-2012

Thornmail counter: 450g.


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Dukasho

Senior Member

02-20-2012

I would love to see a Dominion only variant of Thornmail. I quit playing AD champs on dominion because of how hard it is to mitigate the return damage. People that say buy last whisperer to negate it... don't seem to understand that it isn't the armor that's the issue. It's the return damage. LW just causes thornmail to do MORE damage to yourself. With the healing debuff in dominion, lifesteal is too hard to build up to counter it (requires at least 38% to break even with the return damage). I've died many times with 40-50%+ damage from thornmail alone.


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IndigoHawk

Senior Member

02-20-2012

You could get some mr. Or more lifesteal. Or even some health.

I like Thornmail because it hurts people who are mindlessly focused on massive dps or overstacked their team with ad. When opponents adapt their items, I don't get much value from thornmail. It's only worth it against people who see that I have thornmail and keep buying crit + damage and keep attacking me.

Forcing someone to buy thornmail early does two things: wastes 2000 gold that could have gone towards weapons (lowering their dps), and allows you to counter that 2000 gold by adjusting your items relatively cheaply.


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Bl00dHawk

Junior Member

02-20-2012

IIRC, thornmail works on all on-hit effects. So it's REALLY good against on-hit Kog builds, WW, or anyone else who builds Wit's End, Malady or the like.