Is Thornmail too good on Dominion?

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maxusmaximus

Senior Member

02-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RealWolf M View Post
Oh god, so many stupid people.

Warmogs gave far far far better stats/gold, don't even try to argue that thornmail is more cost effective unless you don't understand anything at all, in which case please dont' play dominion.

Thornmail doesn't counter heavy physical damage, it counters AD auto attackers. Huge different. HUGE. As someone earlier posted with a list of the common AD champions, all of which don't care if you build thornmail.

Also, wtf? Lower your damage output because someone built thornmail? How does building a last whisper LOWER your damage output? It will raise it, 99% of the time, unless the enemy has literally no armour and you are already penetrating/shredding it to 0
actually i understand very well. And like i said in my post i am in no way saying that thornmail is OP or any of that **** (frozen heart or randuins is a much better choice imo). 100 armor will give you 50% less damage from AD (with no pen) so lets say you have 1000 health and you buy thornmail - AD on the other team now has to do 2000 damage to take you down (this applies to any AD caster/autoattacker etc) for just 140 more gold than warmogs you can grab yourself a giants belt giving yourself nearly 3k effective health against AD champs (not taking into account the health you naturally get from levelling). Now this is just for theory sake but lets say you have 1000 health and you have just bought warmogs - thats 1920 health as opposed to effectively having nearly 3k health from thornmail and a giants belt.

warmogs though did give you nice overall health (and survivability vs AD/AP and true dmg) but buying some MR and Armor is much better mitigation for the gold spent and it forces people to deviate from their builds to counter it. the other thing is anyone with kitaes easily counters health stacking while giving you damage and attack speed which most AD carries want anyway


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Elalya

Senior Member

02-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RealWolf M View Post
Oh god, so many stupid people.

Warmogs gave far far far better stats/gold, don't even try to argue that thornmail is more cost effective unless you don't understand anything at all, in which case please dont' play dominion.

Thornmail doesn't counter heavy physical damage, it counters AD auto attackers. Huge different. HUGE. As someone earlier posted with a list of the common AD champions, all of which don't care if you build thornmail.

Also, wtf? Lower your damage output because someone built thornmail? How does building a last whisper LOWER your damage output? It will raise it, 99% of the time, unless the enemy has literally no armour and you are already penetrating/shredding it to 0
Why are you bringing Warmog's into a thread about Dominion?

>.>;;

It would make a lot more sense to compare it to a mallet if you're wanting to compare it to an HP item since it's the healthiest item you can get on the map and it gives a unique passive which heavily effects how a character performs, similar to a thornmail.

If you agree that 16.1 is the average cost for one point of armor, then a thornmail gives you 1610 gold worth of armor which means that you are paying 390 gold for the passive.

If you agree that 2.6 is the average cost for one point of health and 39 is the average cost of one damage, then a frozen mallet gives you 1820 gold worth of health and 780 gold worth of damage (2600 sum) and you are thus paying 650 for the passive.

My point is to disprove the notion that a thornmail is cost inefficient because that's simply NOT true: 400g for a passive which negates internal sustain from auto attackers is extremely powerful and I'll be shocked if you tell me that you never use your auto attacks while playing an AD caster--because you do: it's part of their kit.


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Madra

Senior Member

02-15-2012

If someone buys Thornmail, build Wit's End. Not only will the magic resist help, you are now doing a nice chunk of extra magic damage to someone who spent 2000 gold on an item with 1 stat. Thornmail is good on Dominion, but if you don't build Magic Resist to counter it, it becomes godly.


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Avari Cravin

Senior Member

02-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yousogreat View Post
We know Thornmail's meant to be the ultimate counter to a team full of physical attackers. 100 armor and 30% reflect damage is pretty sickening.

HOWEVER, I feel it might be a tad too powerful in Dominion mode. Why? Because of that 20% healing reduction. That includes less healing from lifesteal, if I'm not mistaken. Getting lifesteal normally is supposed to be the counter to Thornmail, but since lifesteal is weakened on Dominion, you just take lots more damage from those reflects.

While I still think a Thornmail is fine in Classic mode, I've been seeing it too much in Dominion and it causes too many teams to get crushed because they can't attack the majority of the enemy team without killing themselves. It can get really annoying at times.

As such, perhaps Riot should look into introducing a Dominion-only variant of Thornmail that is either a bit weaker or has some other twist to it. The present iteration is too cost-effective on such a map for 2000 gold.

Post comments and discuss.
I agree completely with you. thanks for posting something on this issue. thornmail is to good for its cost and i rarely dont use it because like you and i both said its just to good.


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Darmival

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Senior Member

02-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elalya View Post
Why are you bringing Warmog's into a thread about Dominion?
something probably to do with warmog's used to be buyable on dominion - notice how he said ' gave far far better '


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Phourc

Senior Member

02-15-2012

The problem I have with thornmail is it's a niche item but everyone who needs some quick and cheap armor builds it - negating it's niche status and making the 'counter autoattackers' passive more common than it would be if there were other items that could compete with the armor and price tag xP

@warmogs: Warmogs' massive health bonus hard countered burst assassins just as hard if not harder than thornmail counters autoattackers.

Technically that wasn't the reason for it's removal (price tag verus charge rate was iirc) but it did get pretty ridiculous pretty fast.


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Xavderion

Senior Member

02-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avari Cravin View Post
I agree completely with you. thanks for posting something on this issue. thornmail is to good for its cost and i rarely dont use it because like you and i both said its just to good.
Even if people share an opinion, they can all be wrong.

P.S.: You are wrong.


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Ulstan

Senior Member

02-15-2012

Thornmail is easily countered by building some MR.

I don't think it is too strong at all: build a balanced team and you probably won't even see the enemy using it.


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v4v3nd3774

Senior Member

02-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phourc View Post
The problem I have with thornmail is it's a niche item but everyone who needs some quick and cheap armor builds it - negating it's niche status and making the 'counter autoattackers' passive more common than it would be if there were other items that could compete with the armor and price tag xP
Cheap fast armor is Chain Vest. The entire item still costs 2,000gold and to be perfectly honest it's still niche; people buy it to counter autoattackers. Glacial and FH are far, far more common than TM because it provides nothing else.


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Prometheius

Senior Member

02-15-2012

Last Whisper hard-counters TMail in most cases. It's one item off the standard ranged carry build, and that's only if they got BCleaver instead.