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Is Thornmail too good on Dominion?

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Yousonerfed

Member

02-14-2012

We know Thornmail's meant to be the ultimate counter to a team full of physical attackers. 100 armor and 30% reflect damage is pretty sickening.

HOWEVER, I feel it might be a tad too powerful in Dominion mode. Why? Because of that 20% healing reduction. That includes less healing from lifesteal, if I'm not mistaken. Getting lifesteal normally is supposed to be the counter to Thornmail, but since lifesteal is weakened on Dominion, you just take lots more damage from those reflects.

While I still think a Thornmail is fine in Classic mode, I've been seeing it too much in Dominion and it causes too many teams to get crushed because they can't attack the majority of the enemy team without killing themselves. It can get really annoying at times.

As such, perhaps Riot should look into introducing a Dominion-only variant of Thornmail that is either a bit weaker or has some other twist to it. The present iteration is too cost-effective on such a map for 2000 gold.

Post comments and discuss.


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The Wrongsword

Senior Member

02-14-2012

No: thornmail is the counter to lifesteal, not the other way around. Armor pen and magic resist is the counter to thornmail. There are a number of threads on the subject if you do a search, but the quick version is that the 30% damage is calculated before armor, but is itself reduced by MR- so stacking a mix of MR, armor pen, and lifesteal is effective (all things you probably want to build anyway), but stacking more and more lifesteal vs thornmail is a waste of gold.

The real reason why thornmail is not OP is that you misunderstand who it counters: it does not just counter "physical attackers," it counters autoattackers- and there is a huge difference. Many of the best physical damage dealers, especially in dominion, get a lot of their dmg output from abilities, not autoattacks: wukong, pantheon, riven, irelia, talon, poppy, urgot, and graves for example. So buying thornmail will only be really good against, at most 1 or 2 members of the enemy team, and probably not even the scariest ones.

In short, the effectiveness of thornmail as a counter to certain champs is cancelled out by the inefficiency of it vs the enemy team on the whole, and it's more OP than it should be because people are bad at speccing against it properly.


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crujuco

Senior Member

02-14-2012

You should get countered hard if you pick a team full of AD champs.


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DramaticBear

Senior Member

02-14-2012

Quote:
The Wrongsword:
No: thornmail is the counter to lifesteal, not the other way around. Armor pen and magic resist is the counter to thornmail. There are a number of threads on the subject if you do a search, but the quick version is that the 30% damage is calculated before armor, but is itself reduced by MR- so stacking a mix of MR, armor pen, and lifesteal is effective (all things you probably want to build anyway), but stacking more and more lifesteal vs thornmail is a waste of gold.

The real reason why thornmail is not OP is that you misunderstand who it counters: it does not just counter "physical attackers," it counters autoattackers- and there is a huge difference. Many of the best physical damage dealers, especially in dominion, get a lot of their dmg output from abilities, not autoattacks: wukong, pantheon, riven, irelia, talon, poppy, urgot, and graves for example. So buying thornmail will only be really good against, at most 1 or 2 members of the enemy team, and probably not even the scariest ones.

In short, the effectiveness of thornmail as a counter to certain champs is cancelled out by the inefficiency of it vs the enemy team on the whole, and it's more OP than it should be because people are bad at speccing against it properly.


I have to lower my damage output against everyone else to raise my damage output against thornmail users. Now, before you say that's the point, one person lowers the damage output of a character against everyone. Unless I don't counter the thornmail, in which everyone else builds a thornmail, leaving me to suck ****.

This is the problem.


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Dark Magician

Member

02-14-2012

Wits end for auto attacker and your good. If someone have to build thornmail to counter you then you should counter it with another item nothing wrong with that idea. Oh they build MR against my ap champ I need to get magic pen. See nothing wrong with this.


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GrignardTS

Senior Member

02-14-2012

Is FoN too good on Dominion?

No?

Then why would thornmail?


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The Wrongsword

Senior Member

02-14-2012

Quote:
DramaticBear:
I have to lower my damage output against everyone else to raise my damage output against thornmail users. Now, before you say that's the point, one person lowers the damage output of a character against everyone. Unless I don't counter the thornmail, in which everyone else builds a thornmail, leaving me to suck ****.

This is the problem.


Right but it goes both ways: sure the autoattacker has to lower their overall dmg output to respond to the thornmail, but the thornmail user is also lowering their own defenses against the rest of your team because they are spending 2k gold on an item to counter 1 champ. Instead of a thornmail they could have bought something more balanced like frozen mallet or aegis would be more efficient vs your whole team.

So does the autoattacker get less efficient damage because they have to buy wits end instead of phantom dancer? Sure. But the bruiser who bought thornmail just got less efficient vs pantheon who doesnt care about the thornmail passive, and they got a LOT less efficient vs the enemy team's Ahri by basically being 2k gold down in that matchup. Meanwhile, the autoattacker is still gaining the benefit of their wits end every attack, even if it isnt quite as good as the PD they'd like.

The only time in which this balance does not apply is if one team is full of autoattackers. But in that case their team comp is so dumb it deserves to get countered hard. Against a good team comp, thornmail is just fine.


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maxusmaximus

Senior Member

02-15-2012

While i do agree that thornmail is highly situational, compare that to warmogs, which is much more expensive, only gives health (even if it is a lot of health). For its cost of 2k it is much more cost effective yet warmogs was banned. I dont think thornmail should be taken from the store really but it does shut down quite a few more champs than warmogs ever did. Bring back warmogs i say.


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Forbiddian

Senior Member

02-15-2012

Considering Thornmail is never built, ever, on SR, I don't think it's too strong.

It's a situational item that counters extremely heavy physical damage team comps. But it's not even necessarily better than FH, Zhonyas, Randuins, etc.


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RealWolf M

Senior Member

02-15-2012

Oh god, so many stupid people.

Warmogs gave far far far better stats/gold, don't even try to argue that thornmail is more cost effective unless you don't understand anything at all, in which case please dont' play dominion.

Thornmail doesn't counter heavy physical damage, it counters AD auto attackers. Huge different. HUGE. As someone earlier posted with a list of the common AD champions, all of which don't care if you build thornmail.

Also, wtf? Lower your damage output because someone built thornmail? How does building a last whisper LOWER your damage output? It will raise it, 99% of the time, unless the enemy has literally no armour and you are already penetrating/shredding it to 0