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Shen Impressions

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MMKH

Senior Member

02-14-2012

Quote:
Rekluze:
Would Sweeper be worth picking up on him? I have to admit I'm addicted to the vision granted even against teams without stealth on account of all the bushes and whatnot around the map.


Well he is called "The Eye of Twilight".


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lbgsloan

Senior Member

02-14-2012

Quote:
v4v3nd3774:
What you're quoting is the health needed for the seals to become better than hp/lvl seals, which is very misleading. HP/lvl seals on their own are pretty OP, people don't realize that outclass many of the standard seals being ran, for overall effective health.

What you want to do is simply compare the HP% Quints(1.5%) vs flat HP quints(26HP), and possibly vs the other quints you could be running in the same slot.

1.5%HP = 26HP at roughly 1725~~ HP.

1725 HP with no runes, no masteries and no items is achieved at lvl 16 with Shen

1725 HP with OP HP/lvl seals, cdr glyphs(something that won't drastically impact the maths, just to make the point), mpen marks, HP% quints, 9/21/0masteries and *no items* is acheived at lvl 12(1791).

1725 HP with the above runes + masteries with a Giant's Belt(working on Rylias) is acheived at level EIGHT. And it only gets better from there, as you stack HP.

I think it's quite easy to see that the HP% Quints are quite good, especially because I have a lurking suspicion that League Craft(which this was evaluated with) doesn't consider the 3%HP talent from 21 defense correctly. In the past I've noticed they had issues with the 5%AP mastery in offense.


Interesting. Could be worth looking into, although unlike the seals you give up a lot of other viable options for the health quints. And yeah, the per level health seals are mostly a no-brainer on Dominion, as the only worthwhile seal in the game, IMO, is armour. Unless you're stuck as support on SR and have to buy those sucker seals for two more wards.


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Panwar

Senior Member

02-14-2012

Why CDR? Even with better energy regen he still goes OOE fairly quickly, and his abilities are already on pretty short CD's. I was almost always waiting on energy and not on CD's.

Also why does everyone want to build him as tanky dps and not full tank?

I just build Randuins, FoN, Aegis, Merc Treads, and was going for a Ryalais for more health and a slow on Q. I was very tanky, had great map presense, and reduced damage to my teammates through a use of Q, and E.

Global ults are my favorite thing on Dom. There is just a good feeling knowing that "Hey I'm taking care of business down here, but I'm keeping my eye on you Wind Mill and I will be there if you need me". It's why I like playing GP and Karthus so much.


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brossef

Senior Member

02-14-2012

Quote:
Jjaja:
No pushing power and horrible damage. Great utility though.

I'd build him with a double Doran's, Wit's End, Frozen Mallet, Merc or Tabi, and Zeke's. Stick with your AD-Carry and you'll provide a ton of healing power for him (Zeke's, Q debuff) on top of the AD-carry's lifesteal, and protection (E ability, R ultimate, Frozen Mallet slow).


you do realize this is dominion right?


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v4v3nd3774

Senior Member

02-14-2012

Quote:
Panwar:
Why CDR? Even with better energy regen he still goes OOE fairly quickly, and his abilities are already on pretty short CD's. I was almost always waiting on energy and not on CD's.

Also why does everyone want to build him as tanky dps and not full tank?

I just build Randuins, FoN, Aegis, Merc Treads, and was going for a Ryalais for more health and a slow on Q. I was very tanky, had great map presense, and reduced damage to my teammates through a use of Q, and E.

Global ults are my favorite thing on Dom. There is just a good feeling knowing that "Hey I'm taking care of business down here, but I'm keeping my eye on you Wind Mill and I will be there if you need me". It's why I like playing GP and Karthus so much.

I simply chose cdr in my demonstration to not impact the results greatly for or against HP% quints. I could have been an ******* and been like herpderp HP/lvl glyphs, and skewed the results more in the favor of HP% quints, then been called out on it, invalidating my entire post. The point of the post is simply HP% quints are strong, especially with hp/lvl seals, and that's all I wanted to show. Use whichever glyphs you like, but I think I still might try cdr glyphs due to how gamebreaking his ult is.

I think people are looking to itemize for attackspeed and triggering his passive because he's so incentivized to get attackspeed. More attacks=more Ki strikes=more energy returned=more utility throughput and since you're already stacking health Ki Strike hurts, so why not? It's quite a well known fact that tanks still need damage to prove a threat and a viable target, otherwise they're largely ignoreable(exceptions are tanks with overwhelming amounts of cc, Ali, Leona). This was actually one of the main points that made Shen initially fall out of viability, when they changed how much damage his Q and Ki Strike did.

Personally I'm not so sure about Trinity and I think people are just trying Malady etc for fun, but I agree I would run something more like Rylias, Randiuns, possibly Wit's End over Fon, maybe Abysal, with mercs.


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Panwar

Senior Member

02-14-2012

They really need more MR items in this game.

You choices are usually get FoN, or get like 2-3 items to equal FoN. Where as there are tons of armor choices that you can get a single item of and boost armor dramatically.

But I do agree that I think Wit's End is probably a better fit. I also might just get Thornmail and some of the health items (Zeke's/Hextech/Locket/ionic spark) instead of going Randuins.


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RealWolf M

Senior Member

02-14-2012

Quote:
v4v3nd3774:
What you're quoting is the health needed for the seals to become better than hp/lvl seals, which is very misleading. HP/lvl seals on their own are pretty OP, people don't realize that outclass many of the standard seals being ran, for overall effective health.

What you want to do is simply compare the HP% Quints(1.5%) vs flat HP quints(26HP), and possibly vs the other quints you could be running in the same slot.

1.5%HP = 26HP at roughly 1725~~ HP.

1725 HP with no runes, no masteries and no items is achieved at lvl 16 with Shen

1725 HP with OP HP/lvl seals, cdr glyphs(something that won't drastically impact the maths, just to make the point), mpen marks, HP% quints, 9/21/0masteries and *no items* is acheived at lvl 12(1791).

1725 HP with the above runes + masteries with a Giant's Belt(working on Rylias) is acheived at level EIGHT. And it only gets better from there, as you stack HP.

I think it's quite easy to see that the HP% Quints are quite good, especially because I have a lurking suspicion that League Craft(which this was evaluated with) doesn't consider the 3%HP talent from 21 defense correctly. In the past I've noticed they had issues with the 5%AP mastery in offense.


You just picked terrible quints and then went "these are better".

If yo uwere using hp quints, they would be hp/lvl, at which point its 3240 hp before the % are better. Now while that number is possible, its not something you generally reach most of the game, and as such getting hp/lvl will give you MORE hp for the majority of the game


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v4v3nd3774

Senior Member

02-14-2012

Quote:
RealWolf M:
You just picked terrible quints and then went "these are better".

If yo uwere using hp quints, they would be hp/lvl, at which point its 3240 hp before the % are better. Now while that number is possible, its not something you generally reach most of the game, and as such getting hp/lvl will give you MORE hp for the majority of the game


The second line of my post:
Quote:

What you want to do is simply compare the HP% Quints(1.5%) vs flat HP quints(26HP), and possibly vs the other quints you could be running in the same slot.


I *then* simply showed a comparison of Flat HP vs %HP, because 1) this is a discussion about itemizing HP and 2) many people have Flat HP over HP/lvl due to SR and most consider Flat early stronger than more scaling late.

This does not mean this comparison is the end-all be-all of all comparisons and that these are *the quints* to run on Shen, it simply shows that %HP are quite viable and are better than Flat HP, especially when building additional HP early. This does *not* draw any other comparisons to other quints that may actually be invaluable to him, like MS or even Energy regen(not saying those are the best, just that those bring hard to quantify utility).

Try *not* overreacting to a post for once and just reading it for what it is, then responding with your own suggestions and insight instead of attempting to flame people. This is probably the 3rd or 4th time I've seen you do this in the couple weeks I've been browsing these Dominion forums.

Edit: By the way, with the runes and masteries I outlined something as simple as Rylias or Sunfire + Aegis brings you right to that break point you're speaking of for lvl18 Shen. Pretty sure the HP% quints are at least on par with if not better than HP/lvl quints, considering it's not hard to have 5-6k gold accumulated by the time you hit 18 and Hp/lvl Quints have stopped growing.


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Panwar

Senior Member

02-14-2012

So far this is what I'm doing:

Start>Giant's belt/2 heal pots
Merc Treads
Sunfire cape
Wit's End

In whatever order I deem necessary. Then on to Aegis, and that's as far as I've gotten. But it's working awesome. I've held off 3v1 points. And I got a triple once.

I've been putting 1 point in each skill and then leveling R>W>Q>E

The key is keeping an eye on your energy. If you have to Shadow dash you have to dash, but if you only have enough energy for either a W, or a Q, W takes priority so that you can gain that energy back faster.

He can just sit there on that last sliver of health for what seems like forever. I'm having a blast and I fear nerfs are incoming.


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Little Boy Nate

Senior Member

02-14-2012

Seeing as Shen will have the new priority stats of Health>AP>Defensive Stats it only makes sense to buy items to get all of these stats.

If I were to play as Shen I would most likely go -

Prospector's Ring
Merc Treads
Rylai's Crystal Scepter (Health, AP, and another soft CC. He is a tank after all.)
Abyssal Scepter OR Sunfire Cape (Depending on your needs against the enemy team.)
Abyssal or Sunfire (Whichever you did not get.)
Attack Speed and Ability Power Item (Malady to make the enemies squishier to spells or Nashor's for extra AS, AP, and good CDR.)