Nautilus Patch Notes

First Riot Post
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FaelAGR

Junior Member

02-15-2012

Give our Soraka back!


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kUkara4

Senior Member

02-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysterage View Post
Yeah I'm usually quite long winded around patch days. Today just more so because of how upset I am, and go ahead. I welcome feedback, and may change my mind if it makes sense. Unlike some companies...*Cough* Well sir, I actually DO know how hard it is to make a game. I'm old enough that when I went to school in my computer programming class we learned how to code, by hand, line by line, DOS based video games. Yes I know the process is far more complex now, but believe me when I say I know every single step, from music production, level design, playtesting, storyboards, and on and on. I realize it is not a simple system, but you can look at how grossly many of the champions have been in the past in terms of power level, both on the very low end to the extremely high, most anyone can see there is a problem in whoever is in charge of balancing. No, I actually know exactly where I'd begin. It's quite obvious from the games I play in. Many of us upset about the constant spell vamp nerfs also realize how broken life steal is. How many times have you seen a Master Yi, Twitch, whoever, who all they have to do to win the game, is stack Phantom Dancers along with Blood Thirsters? After this throw in an Infinity Edge for crits, and possible Berserker's Greaves (true I see some players who skip boots entirely to get more PD's & BT's.) I've seen this done on Teemo, Ashe, and practically every single AD champion. I'm surprised it has gone on for so long, and that the powers that be at Riot have not noticed this trend at all. IMO the fact that from all of the items out there, that the same six ones are always, always picked beyond others is a problem to me. Why does no one build Leviathan? Tiamat? Moonflair Spellblade? There is no imagination, nor creativity on the part of the players to think to build these items, and there is no stand-out reason why they should either. Also very next after my list would be to closely examine the role of supports in game, to see why Sona & Soraka are far more popular than Taric, Alistar, etc (I'm guessing that because of Riot's own dirty hands, in reworking both of those champions. Who wants to play a support whose heal is utter garbage?) Just how "slightly involved" in game development are you? Because likely this weekend I'll be going to do playtesting for a certain games studio. I also probably shouldn't name names, but you might have heard of them, they put out a little game called Arkam Asylum, and Arkahm City...? So yes I know a bit about how to balance a game. I've been playing them since the Atari, and when it comes to MOBA's, LoL is the 3rd of them I have tried my hand at. Or if you're still not sure that I have the credentials, intelligence or know how on what people like, and what a gamer considers balanced I'm not just a gamer of video games, but RPG's, and understand the power ratio difference of a caster who is squishy versus Riot's hideous problem with a tanky DPS, something that plagued D&D 3.5, and now is running amok in LoL. Also if for some reason you may think I am not knowledgeable enough about LoL to make these kinds of comments, I play it every single day, and have played it on and off since beta. I spend most of my free time during the day coming up with strategies, champion counters, reading up on the Wiki, browsing & commenting on the forums, and of course in games.

Ah, interesting numbers you have there. Just because we're still on the topic of balancing, I'll bring up someone who works for Riot who mentioned numbers, in the case of balancing Gunblade: Morello. He said "We've run some numbers and it is giving too many stats for its cost." I ran those numbers myself to find that the actual cost of Gunblade, the 2nd most expensive item in the game next to TF, actually had at best average values for AP, and below average ratios everywhere else. How am I supposed to have faith in this company when I myself find that the so called "math" they are doing was just plain wrong? But yes figuring the possible number of champions that can possibly interact per match is quite interesting. Though I think you forgot a variable. The actual numbers you are looking for is 92*91*90*89*88 x 92*91*90*89*88, right? Balancing champions is actually quite easy, since LoL only has so many game mechanics, and interactions possible. There are volumes to be said just about making a jungler character. Even now people are finding that Nautilus actually falls behind that of other junglers, and though he has good ganking potential, I don't see him becoming as strong a choice for the job as others. I do however see him with some unique builds & options becoming a good strong tank pick. That's just my opinion though, and although you called me ignorant, I still welcomed yours.
You, sir, are a gentleman, I appreciate that I am very glad that this post was not written by one of those 10-year-olds. My math was correct, since I wasn't looking for interactions but for "all possible *single* team combinations". I still think that balancing LoL is harder than it looks. I also feel sad that so many items are poorly used, and what I see as the reason is that players are going for the end-game items right away, while Leviathan, maybe not so much Tiamat, Moonflair Spellblade are mid-game items. I don't really know the best way to fix that. The problem with MOBA games is that it's really hard to nerf one "class" without indirectly buffing another one. You mentioned the Gunblade, well I see it as a perfect hybrid item. If given more ap, the hybrids like Rumble might seem op. Nerfing the Phantom Dancer/ Bloodthurster combo will make ap nukers like Veigar/LeBlanc seem op. Buffing the supports in terms of heal can make them seem undying, thus op. Nerfing life steal and buffing spell vamp can make spell casters seem op. I myself hate and never play Yi or Trynd or Twitch because of how rediculously easy it is to play well with them and how powerful the above mentioned combo is on them. There are always advice like "nuke them first", "they are squishies", "don't focus the tank". And here come two more significant problems. Firstly, balancing the team-work, team gameplay and making many team combinations viable. Secondly, making all the champions viable, while maintaining the unique gameplay and interesting mechanics. In fact, this is what I hate the most about the LoL players - Riot created so many unique champions, but people just keep playing the easiest ones of them. "Why should I play a skill-shot based Karma when I can pick Sona or Soraka and just point click all day and then qq on the forum about their gameplay changes (not even nerfs)?" People are always asking for a unique gameplay but only a little portion of them actually appreciate what Riots tries to deliver. For example, Ziggs - just came out, unique gameplay, skill-shot based and as a result I already don't see him that often, since he is substituted by Annie or Ryze. What Riot once tried to do is increase the power and damage of the difficult to play skill-shot based champs to compensate for their difficulty and as a result Cass is nerfed in this patch. And here is the gist of the problem - you can't just increase the damage or scaling of a hard champ like Cass, since then she will seem op, but if you let her stay at her current level, then nobody would play her, since there are a lot more easier and as powerful champs to pick. All Riot is doing is experimenting, I don't think they and anyone at all know how to balance this game, in fact, this game can be unbalancable. Oh, nvm, there is one way! You can make all the champs the same! but then where is the fun? It's like Socialism and Capitalism: Socialism is easy to balance - everyone is equal. Capitalism is imossible to balance - if there are rich people then there mush be poor peole. So, if Riot continues to bring in unique mechanics and abilites, the game will get harder and harder to balance. Oh, this actually answers the question of those who said, "I remember the days when LoL was very balanced and there were 40 champs to pick from". I think many would agree that the new champions are much more unique in terms of playstyle than the first ones.

Ok, this was quite an essay Speaking about my "slight involvement" in gamedev. I am a college student and I am in a little gamedev team and we are making a platformer. We have a unique spellcasting mechanics and it is already a headache about how to make the spells less op, but very powerful and fun at the same time, so that the levels don't seem too easy to beat. I remember I played WoW for 2 years long ago, then quit, and as I heard about the latest expansions, the classes are much less balaned than in the original WoW. Considering that Blizzard has the best "Balancing team" I wonder what is the reason?...


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Vertany

Senior Member

02-15-2012

[sarcasm] I totally support the Support Nerfs! As it was, everyone wanted to play Support since they're so OP! [/sarcasm]
-.-


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kUkara4

Senior Member

02-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertany View Post
[sarcasm] I totally support the Support Nerfs! Everyone wanted to play Support since they're so OP! [/sarcasm]
-.-
This might be right to a certain extent...


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SpiderEternal

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Senior Member

02-15-2012

Goodbye my sweet Soraka. Rest in peace. *sigh* Riot...

Y U HATE SUPPORT!?

Honestly, with the way the trends are going, people don't even want to play support at all anymore. Support is being replaced with other carries, tanks and damage dealers who simply take the support role. What they lack in healing they bring in pain, which seems to trump a true support more with every patch.

Not cool Riot.


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Jelly Rev

Member

02-15-2012

nerf kennen's poke and then nerf his item?
Wear are these nerfs coming from?
Kayle still untouched?


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Antibreeder

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Senior Member

02-15-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by kUkara4 View Post
The problem with MOBA games is that it's really hard to nerf one "class" without indirectly buffing another one.

What Riot once tried to do is increase the power and damage of the difficult to play skill-shot based champs to compensate for their difficulty and as a result Cass is nerfed in this patch.

And here is the gist of the problem - you can't just increase the damage or scaling of a hard champ like Cass, since then she will seem op, but if you let her stay at her current level, then nobody would play her, since there are a lot more easier and as powerful champs to pick.

All Riot is doing is experimenting, I don't think they and anyone at all know how to balance this game, in fact, this game can be unbalancable
While balancing MOBA games is difficult and non-ending, you can find balancing points for the current meta game.

Small changes, ideally very focused, can work. Changes like Sona's early game are very specific and eventually balance out. There may be some long term ramifications from having reduced early game weakening the rest of your game, but it was at least a small change.

The change to Soraka was completely different. It negated a huge source of her mana without giving her any real compensation. She doesn't ever get back to previous levels late game because Astral Blessing and Starcall are now more expensive at higher ranks. Sure you save a marginal amount of mana from the rank 1 cost decrease, but once you rank it up, the benefit is completely negated even within early game and she can never infuse herself.

The better approach would have been to make smaller tweaks to Soraka. Have her infuse return less mana to her on cast or only on self-cast. Tweaking her skillset so it still is functional, but not infinite mana. If they wanted to remove her Infuse they should have at least boosted her mana regen to be comparable to other champions.

While making changes to Soraka and Sona it would have also made sense to make some tweaks to Janna, Taric, Alistar, etc. Make them slightly more viable and team comp friendly.

Patches bring good and bad changes, hopefully Soraka will be properly balanced, which is the goal to keep her a viable champion to play, competitive and comparable to other supports.


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Fancayzy

Senior Member

02-15-2012

I know this is shocking, but I just played a Soraka and I actually had to tell my team to back because all my abilities were all greyed out and I couldn't cast them. Maybe I was bugged.

Wait...is this what they call oom? On Soraka? Oh, the humanity! I can't stand it!

Help me.

p.s. And yes I had almost 3k gold on Soraka when I b'd. I was kinda shocked myself.


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Master Joohny

Junior Member

02-15-2012

why the hell they nerfed soraka, now soraka has nothing, low damage, no mana and heal cost?? , no reason to use soraka again


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Sylphic

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Senior Member

02-15-2012

Fix Evelynn.